05 - Conspiracy Theories

Speaker 0 00:00 So join us today on an incomplete history when we discuss conspiracy theories. Have Americans always been obsessed with the deep state conspiracies? If you want to know what the Apollo 11 moon landing, the Atlanta child murders and the JFK assassination have in common with Abraham Lincoln's assassination, join us today on an incomplete history. Speaker 1 00:21 <inaudible> Speaker 0 00:40 hello and welcome to an incomplete history. I'm Hillary and I'm Jeff. Where are your hosts for this weekly history podcast? So a good evening, Hillary. Hello. How are you doing? Pretty good. Uh, so you're a little distracted tonight, right? Speaker 3 00:58 A little bit. Yeah. The ashes are playing in game seven, so I have the game on silently in the background Speaker 0 01:06 of the world series. Yeah. Of the world series. Well, I'm sure there's some good baseball conspiracies we could talk about. I mean, that's what we're talking about today, right? Conspiracy theories. Speaker 3 01:15 That was one that happened last night in game six. But we won't go there. Speaker 0 01:21 Uh, what's the weather like there? I mean, some people have commented, are you guys always going to talk about the weather? Uh, so how's the weather? Speaker 3 01:28 Sure. Yeah. Um, it's crazy because today it was 70 something degrees and tomorrow morning it's going to be 31, so we're expecting like a 40 degree temperature job in just overnight and it's been raining. So it's just, I have not gotten used to this and I've actually been battling a cold for the last couple of weeks cause the weather's been like hot and cold and hot and cold. So. Speaker 0 01:56 Well we're in the midst of a big Santa Ana event. Like Speaker 3 02:00 I saw that the Reagan library was really close. Speaker 0 02:03 Uh, evidently everything around it in Simi Valley burns, but the library itself didn't burn. So we'll see what happens tomorrow. It's probably conspiracy. Um, but I mean they turned off the weather controlling machines or something, I guess. Um, uh, it was 54 here last night. That's Chile. All the parkers came out. Yeah, Chile. They put the oven. I mean, I'm surprised the city didn't issue a winter storm. Warning. Today we're going to be talking about conspiracy theories and we've already talked about a conspiracy theory on the podcast, right? Yes. The Salem witch trials. Uh, Harvey agrees. Um, you can hear him in the background and agreeing wholeheartedly. He's a fan of conspiracy theories. Uh, yeah, the Salem witch trials, uh, which were a conspiracy theory, which in modern parlance would be conspiracy theory. But maybe before we jump into what these things are and kind of a, before we jump into kind of what conspiracies kind of, what are classic conspiracies in American history, let's kind of set some parameters about what we mean by conspiracy theories. I think that's useful. And I think where we also want to get to is as how do you deal with them, right? Um, how do you deal with them then when, um, your crazy uncle brings them up during Thanksgiving dinner or if you're an educator when a student brings them up, how do you, how do you deal with it without just dismissing it? So conspiracy theories, et, that's a new term, right? Speaker 3 03:42 Um, relatively relatively at emergence in the 19th century. Speaker 0 03:49 A little bit, but I think it really crystallizes around JFK, his assassination, right. Speaker 3 03:55 Um, well the term's been around for a long time. Whether or not people would use it to describe things or not is up for debate, but there have been, um, you know, the, the word has been used and it's been used differently at different time periods. So, um, slave rebellion was often called conspiracy, so the word. And so I think that's why it's important to set the parameters. Like what do we mean when we say conspiracy versus what might it mean in a historical context? Speaker 0 04:24 Well, I think, so JFK assassination on, which is 1963, I think from that moment on, conspiracy theory takes on the era of, Oh, look at this crazy person coming up with this convoluted explanation for how this thing happened because they can't face reality. Speaker 3 04:40 Yeah. I, and I mean, that is where it becomes politicized. But, um, I think in the 19th century it was used oftentimes to discuss, um, conspiracies that were going to be lobbied against the United States. So in 1835, there's a book published foreign conspiracies against the liberties of the United States. And there's a lot of discussion about, you know, that other governments are trying to bring down the United States and oftentimes it's rooted in religious, um, religious conspiracies, anti-Catholic conspiracies, uh, ovarian thing. No, that's in the 18th century. That kind of carries into the 1820s at times, but, Speaker 0 05:24 but there's probably, there's a connection probably between them, right? Speaker 3 05:28 Yeah. Because there's this underlying, yeah, for sure. I mean there's like an underlying anti-Catholic anti Masonic, a conspiracy theory that's, that's lobbied in the 18th and then the 19th century again. But I think what we're talking about though in popular sense is when it's heavily politicized and, and I think the JFK assassination is one of those moments. But what about McCarthyism? Right, right. I mean, that's Speaker 0 05:58 the, the thing is McCarthy's sicker McCarthy gives that great speech, um, that, uh, Richard Hofsteder references in a classic work by an American historian called the paranoid style in American politics. And this was an article Hofstetter wrote in 1964 and he was writing in response to the Goldwater campaign, right. And Speaker 3 06:21 to talk about paranoia. And he doesn't actually use conspiracy when he's talking about it. Um, but he, he is talked in paranoia. And so there's an idea that, um, paranoid can kind of flow into conspiracy, which then flows into politics and he does kind of do this nice overview of historical references to theories of conspiracy, but, Speaker 0 06:50 right. Well, so I mean, he starts the article off with a reference about J, uh, Senator Joseph McCarthy, right? And he says, in June of 50, one, McCarthy basically says, look, the United States could not be in the dire straits it is in right at this moment, unless there was this vast conspiracy going on. And McCarthy says he's the only one who can kind of root this conspiracy out, figure out how all these nefarious people, um, you know, he links them all with communism. Um, basically anybody who had even walked by a books, by marks or Ingles or was, could vaguely be assumed to be homosexual, gets wrapped in up to this, uh, and eventually kind of gets its tentacles into Hollywood and everything. I mean, the interesting thing is McCarthy, so paranoid about this communist conspiracy that he actually creates his own kind of conspiracy to, to silence his critics, right? Speaker 3 07:53 That's what offset our argues is that the people who are most afraid of conspiracies and up forging more conspiracies as a result of it. Uh, but this can also be traced. So it is really difficult to pinpoint a particular moment. I think that we think of JFK as being this great 20th century example. But if we're talking McCarthy, I mean, and the, you know, communist conspiracy and fear of communism, this is also rooted in pre world war two rhetoric about, uh, FDRs new deal programs, trying to consolidate the federal government, um, and put, bringing the economy under the purview of the federal government, um, trying to pave the way for communism. And Hofstetter talks a little bit about that too. And so I think that you can always just trace it back, back, back, back, back. And I think that's what happens to any historians, author, writing a dissertation right now. Like this is what happens when you write a dissertation and you have the topic. You'll just like, well I think it starts here, well actually, no, maybe before, before, before. And you have to set parameters for what you're working on and what area you're discussing. But when it comes to this topic, because there's different ways to describe the different, like, so the overlaps of conspiracy, paranoia, faith, you know, just misinformation. I mean however you want to characterize it, you can trace it to most times in American history and world history in general. Speaker 0 09:25 Right. Well let's, so let's jump back kind of to the early Republic period and maybe a little bit before then and talk about there a couple of kind of early threads of conspiracy theories. Right? So there's one we've already talked about and we should definitely talk a little bit more about today cause I think it's so important. Um, and Richard Hofstadter has like one of the best quotes ever in an article, and I'm gonna read it in a minute about this is the Antica as, as Catholic Catholic conspiracy, right? And that re-emerges in JFK, his presidential election, his campaign in 1960 is this idea that the Catholics are constantly at odds with what the United States stands for. And why is that? Um, so you get all these conspiracies that are kind of floating around anti Catholicism and the other are conspiracies. They kind of reveal anxieties about the French revolution and what that means. Speaker 3 10:27 But let's kind of tease out the anti-Catholic thing a little bit. Um, what does that STEM from? And it's fear over the Pope because they see allegiances being not to government and not to nation or to state and more toward an external leadership force in the form of the Pope. And that's not only anti Catholic, but it's also sort of anti-European in a sense too, because there, there's a lot, a lot of these fears crop up during moments of intense nationalism. And this idea about Catholics being more Allegiant to an a foreign power. That's where that comes from. And there's the, this extreme anxiety in the 1790s that we've touched on so many times in the podcast. But, uh, there's, whenever there's an anxiety or fear, conspiracy theories come right after that. And I think that's what it's all rooted in. Speaker 0 11:32 So Hofstadter's quote about this, it's this great anti Catholicism has always been the pornography of the Puritan that kills me. Like, it's so funny and it's so true. Um, do you remember the firebacks the iron that Puritans would have in their, their house? Do you remember the pictures of it? So a popular thing to have on the Firebag. A lot of times you have things like Satan or something, but I'm the devil. Um, but one of the most popular was to have a picture of the Pope because it was this idea that, you know, you could sit there and warm your cold feet by the fire on a winter's night in Massachusetts and imagine the Pope burning in the pit. The pits of hell. It was, I mean, it's, and you know, it's, I think it's hard for people who haven't studied the period to understand the depths. This anti-Catholic sentiment went, uh, and it continued. I mean, Harriet Beecher Stowe, his father Lyman Beecher like says, um, before, this is before the civil war in the 1830s, he says, you know, we Christians and by Christians he meant Protestant. Um, he's Christians are struggling with Catholics in the West and we have to win if we don't, um, the Christian millennium will end and it won't actually happen here. Speaker 3 13:06 They thought too that the second coming was imminent. Speaker 0 13:09 Well, yes, I mean 1835 is, you know, yeah, definitely. They, you know, this is part of the second great awakening and this idea that the millennium is eminent. They really thought that if they could kind of purge these Catholic influences out of the country, they could create this perfect Protestant Christian nation. And I, and I think it's, it's closely related to kind of the other one I talked about, which is this fear which was foreign, right? So anti Catholic fears are foreign and the, the, the fears about the French revolution are foreign as well. Right. The idea that the French had engaged in this bloody revolution that had gone too far. Speaker 3 13:52 Some people thought so. But as we've talked about in the past too, some people were highly supportive of it because you do start to see an emergence of parties and politics in this era. And some people thought that the French revolution was fine, but others were terrified of it. And you know, it's just like any other moment in history. There's a, there's a sharp divide and when you can't explain something on your side of it, then that's when the conspiracy theories have bound. Again, kind of rooted in fear. But there's a lot of fear on behalf of the aristocracy when they see the French revolution, just taking it really bloody turn that that could potentially happen in the United States. And then of course you have the Haitian revolution, which, um, crops up additional fears of foreign influence, uh, in the United States. And then this one's obviously rooted in racial fears. So I think the 1790s or this prime of instability, which we've discussed, and that instability sort of brings the conspiracy theories to the fore. Speaker 0 15:02 Yeah. So, the, so we've got those two, like the anti Catholicism and the anti kind of, I would say the F the, the fears about the French revolution spreading. We could call, we could call something that's akin to what later becomes fears of world of global socialism and the global communism, right? This idea that this external political force is going to change the way the United States functions. So you've got those two, and then there's this third one, which is the place I think many contemporary conspiracy theories returned to again and again that it, and it's the anti-missile. It's the Masonic conspiracy. Oh yeah, that's a classic one. I mean, it's full with that, right? I mean, this is the deep space state, the shadow government, the Illuminati. Uh, so I mean, and this one emerges almost at the same time as the United States becomes an independent nation, right? I mean, and it doesn't help that many of the founding fathers and many of the first presidents were in fact masons. Right? That doesn't help it at all. Speaker 3 16:17 When there's all this Mason Masonic iconography in the government. And, I mean, this is how Dan Brown made all of his money right in the mid two thousands or the early two thousands, because we're still so fascinated by this. And by this idea that there's a power greater that we don't know about that's controlling things and it's a scapegoating policy and, and very quickly it can go down this rabbit hole of racism and antisemitism and, um, you know, it can just take all these ugly turns, which, which makes it very difficult to discuss without allowing it to go there. Um, but of course with the anti Mason stuff, I mean, I've kind of rooted each of these moments of ant of conspiracy theories abounding bounding in us history and tied them to these critical moments. And so we talk about the 1790s, but then in the 1820s and thirties with Jackson, another moment of extreme instability and the emergence of traditional political parties as being another moment where conspiracy theories abound and they're rooted in Jackson's relationship to the Masonic order. They're rooted in Mason. He is. Yeah. But what I'm saying, he's like, you get conspiracy theories that come out because there's, there's a lot of anxiety at this time. Speaker 0 17:48 I mean, don't you think, go ahead. I mean, don't you think this is, it's so weird that Jackson's a Mason because of his anti bank stance. It just isn't, it's perplexing. I mean, it's, and you know, I would love to read what some of the early critics of may of, of masons would have said if they had lived till Jackson was alive to like, well, how do you, how do you square this circle that Jackson, you know, seems very anti Masonic or at least what the masons were supposedly pushing towards, but as in fact himself a Mason. Speaker 3 18:28 Well, and that's the core element though. What the, what the Mason seem to be pushing for. Right. I think we put far too much stock in what masons are doing and what they're up to and what their purposes. Like. Have you ever been to like a Masonic lodge or do you know people who participated in the masons? It's like book club for dudes. You know, it's like gossip hour for dudes to get together and like to assume that they're so highly organized, I think just gives them way too much credit. Um, and so, I mean it's, it's, I think we're making a lot of assumptions about what it is that Mason's actually do in order to even try to get into a conversation about like, why can't believe Jackson was a Mason? I mean, I can, because he was always, he was always trying to be in those upper echelons of society. He was always trying to relate himself to people with money. He was always trying to get into these circles and he was quite successful at it. His, his charismatic nature, you know, he, he marries well and he ends up, uh, you know, getting into these more errors to cratic realms where he comes from nothing. And so to me, him being a Mason just kind of makes sense in his sort of social climbing. Speaker 0 19:44 Nike did. Right. So I want to know if you've ever heard this, did you ever hear that Jerry or cotton Mathers conspiracy about native Americans? No, they were agents of Satan. Well, I guess that's, that was right. Speaker 3 20:06 I mean, I guess I have heard that. I never thought of that as a conspiracy theory. I thought that was just racist. Speaker 0 20:10 Well, um, well I mean, and that I think exposes something else is that kind of a lot of conspiracy theories have an either a very obvious racist slant to them or kind of a hidden racism, right? Uh, this obviously this one, this is, it's not hidden at all, but, um, yeah, Mather evidently was, you know, said that among the Indians who's chief Sagamore is, are well known to unto some of our captives to have been horrid source or so sourcers for Mather where it kind of agents of Satan. Um, and you know, this is him warning. We shouldn't get too friendly with these people because they are antithetical to everything we as upstanding Puritan stand for. Um, Speaker 3 21:00 well and again, what's that rooted in fear? Right? You know, not all of them can be traced back to fear and uncertainty in when people are even slightly uncomfortable. They want to come up with some grand explanation to, you know, alleviate their discomfort. And this is a great example of it because people in the 17th century are scared of native Americans. And there's a lot of rumors and conspiracies and things that circulate, just rooted in this uncertainty. And, and then, and then it just does plan out to flat out racism even though they wouldn't use that terminology in the 17th century. But, and I don't want to, you know, try to put our values or whatever, but it is, you know, they're just afraid of people who are of a different race than they are. And so I think that that's just like the textbook definition of it. Right, right. Speaker 0 22:04 What about night ER, the 1824 election. Speaker 3 22:08 Okay. So I love this. I think that, Speaker 0 22:12 is it your Watergate? Speaker 3 22:16 Well, it is really interesting because I don't know if it's a conspiracy theory, but Jackson gets really fumed over this election because there are people who do conspire against him. And so then it's not really a theory. It kind of just is a fact. Speaker 0 22:36 Well, so let's, so let's talk about what happens real quick. Let's, let's give the listeners like a quick rundown of 19 or 1824 what happens in the presidential election? Speaker 3 22:45 Okay. John Quincy Adams is running against uh, Jackson and was it clay and he was five candidates. There's spot, yeah, there's five candidates, but basically it's like Jackson vs Adams and the vote gets split up so many different ways that it has to go to Congress to decide. And then there's like this backdoor deal made where Clay's like, I can kind of whip the votes in your favor. Atoms if you make me the secretary of state, just like, all right, cause clay speaker of the house. Right. But I mean they don't even really like each other, but he's just trying to like up, you know, like up his position and say, well I came in like when he came in like fourth place or something. Right. He's like, I'm not going to get it. So I'll just, I'll just, you know, go for atoms and then I'll get a higher position in government. Plus I also hate Jackson so and so. Then Jackson, he didn't even really want to be president in 18, 24 he said, but then he gets super fumed about it and then he has like this vendetta and that's what spurs him into action. All of Jackson's policies are about vengeance. And this is like, yeah, for 18, 24 and then he, you know, Speaker 0 24:02 I mean, it, it radicalizes them, right? I mean, in a lot of ways, the 18, 24 election radicalizes Jackson, um, and he talks about this corrupt bargain that Adams and clay engaged in. Speaker 3 24:18 Well, it kind of was. And so it's not really a theory, it's just like, well, that actually happened and that's, this is where the lines get blurred for me, so often about conspiracy theory versus we've uncovered historical fact as historians are, I mean, historians are the ones who often reveal things that have happened in the past that, uh, kind of make people a little uncomfortable that maybe they didn't want to believe or think about. Uh, this isn't an uncomfortable one. This one's just kind of like political drama. But yeah, I mean Jackson is a conspiracy theorist in 1824 by saying like, well, they've conspired against me and then he's vengeful for the rest of his life. Speaker 0 25:05 But then 18, 28, there is an actual conspiracy theory that gets floated by Adam's supporters Speaker 3 25:15 about Rachel. Speaker 0 25:17 Well, I mean there's the Rachael things. We can talk about that, but I'm tossing talking also the, the supposed COO to TA that if, if Jackson lost the 1828 election, um, there was this whole theory that, and these are Adams supporters said that Jackson's, uh, that pro Jax and Congressman, uh, were holding secret meetings to discuss the disillusion of the union and that if Jackson was not elected president, um, that Adams should not be astonished to see general Jackson placed in the presidential chair at the point of 50,000 ban EDS. Um, there doesn't seem to be any basis for, in reality, for this conspiracy theory, but I could see how it could capture people's imagination. Right? This, you know, the, the 24 and the 28 elections are just so vitriolic that, you know, there was anxiety about what if our guy loses. Speaker 3 26:18 Sure. And then again, going back to the theme, that anxiety leads to these alternate theories for what may happen and it gets people riled up. And it's interesting when we think about, you know, the modern era and people talking about, well, things never been so divided in elections and urban, so fraught. Um, this, we've never encountered this before, but we know that like, well, 18, 24 and 18, 28. I mean those are just a couple, but there have been moments and, and the elections have always spurred conspiracy theories and there's always been this idea that, well, it's rigged. Or, um, there's going to be a, yeah, there's going to be a coup or, um, there's going to be forcible, uh, election of somebody. And I mean it, this is, I think you said this when we were discussing doing this podcast, like it's as American as Apple pie, right? But it's also, it's just human nature. I mean, I think that it's not just, it's not American, it's not exclusively American. I mean, I just think that people like to traffic in these alternate theories to explain things that they don't like, you know? So if you don't like the way some, the way something's going, then you can come up with all these different theories to kind of soothe your mind and, and uh, give you permission to feel a certain way towards someone or something. I know I'm being vague right now, but, Speaker 0 27:50 well, what, so what about the, the Southern cabal? Speaker 4 27:54 Oh, Speaker 0 27:55 that kills all those presidents in the 19th century. Speaker 3 28:02 Go on. Yeah, go on. Speaker 0 28:04 Go on. Go on. So supposedly, so in 1864, this book comes out called the adders den and it basically connects the attempted shooting of Andrew Jackson in 1835, Speaker 5 28:25 um, along Speaker 0 28:28 with William Henry Harrison's death, Zachary Taylor's death, Speaker 5 28:32 um, along with <inaudible> Speaker 0 28:34 kind of an intimidation and blackmail campaign against John James Buchanan too. And it was all at the behest of the slave power's right. It was all these Southern slave States that were willing to do anything to make sure the president never push an anti slave agenda. And it culminates, um, so dye comes out with his book in 1864 in the second edition of the book, he actually includes the Abraham Lincoln, Abraham Lincoln's assassination. Um, Speaker 4 29:05 yeah. Speaker 0 29:05 You know, and to somebody who had read the first edition, when that second edition comes out, it must've just seemed like vindication of the entire conspiracy theory. Right. We'll see. Here you go. Here was another president who posts slavery and he gets killed by this cabal. Evidently, John Calhoun was blamed for at least, um, Jackson, the attempt on Jackson's life. Speaker 5 29:27 Um, Speaker 3 29:29 I believe it. Speaker 0 29:30 Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, that is true. I mean, we do have, you know, uh, I mean, Alexander Hamilton dies in a dual, like the 18th and early 19th century are a very different place. But I mean, is there a vast Southern COBOL that's kind of doing these conspiracy theory act conspiratorial activities behind the scenes? Speaker 3 29:56 I always like to veer cautiously and say no because I just have a complete lack of faith in anybody's ability to be that organized. You know, when you see how our government functions and how it's historically function. Like people just aren't that organized, especially over long periods of time. And that's why the Masonic one always makes me laugh. Cause it's like there's this idea that over centuries and centuries and centuries, there's just been this like upheld order. The, you know, is just wreaking havoc on this, on society. And I guess, I mean, call me a pessimist, but I just don't have faith in individuals to be that organized. Speaker 0 30:41 Well, there's that whole issue of how many people can keep a secret. And I think when we get to some of the, some of the conspiracy theories I teased and the kind of the lead up to this episode that I want us to talk about a little bit, some of them are acquire thousands of people keeping their mouth shut. Speaker 3 31:00 I know I can't, Speaker 0 31:02 I just don't see that happening. So let's start with Apollo 11. Okay. Because I think we can get into, uh, I mean the, the illogical yet to people who believe it, logical extension of Apollo 11 is flat earth. So let's start with flat earth. Speaker 3 31:18 Okay. I have to tell you, I watched the flat earth documentary today on Netflix in preparation for us discussing, Speaker 0 31:27 right. And, Speaker 3 31:30 um, no, I was embarrassed. Speaker 0 31:35 I mean, this is, yeah, let Speaker 3 31:36 me, let me actually go back and say, I am never dismissive of anybody saying things like, I don't think that that's appropriate. I don't like it when people traffic in, um, dismissal of other people's ideas. And as a woman, I'm very sensitive to this because I think this happens to women all the time where if someone doesn't like something a woman does or says she's crazy, and as soon as that word popped out, as soon as that word pops out, everything after that, well, she's crazy. She's crazy, right? And so I'm really sensitive to people being dismissed outright. And so I did watch it and I thought, you know, I'm, I just want to see what they have to say. Right. And I don't think they're crazy. I think that there's something to do with belief that's really Furmanite and there's a fine line between like making fun of people's religion and their faith and their belief. Speaker 3 32:33 And then also making fun of conspiracy theorist. Now I would say though, I watched it and it made me uncomfortable because I was like, they tried to do these tests and their tests failed. Right? And I mean, and they're talking on cell phones and they're on the internet and it's like satellites too. Right? And so like there's stuff that I just, I felt sad that they have such a lack of faith and trust in government that it leads them down this path. And I'm not dismissive of it, but I am, I, I want to know more. I want more of their evidence. And that's what I constantly push students about because I have, you know, some students who, um, dabble in this sort of realm and I'm just always asking for evidence and that's where it has to come down to. So I, I watched it and I was, I felt embarrassed when they were trying to conduct experiments and they just weren't working. And I, I felt bad for them. Speaker 0 33:43 So I mean, talking about evidence, let's talk about that. Because the Apollo moon landing, um, the evidence that always gets trotted out for this are the pictures, right? Uh, the pictures of, Speaker 5 33:57 um, Speaker 0 33:59 the astronauts on the moon and there doesn't, there don't seem to be any stars in the background. And you know, the conspiratorial explanation for this is that Stanley Kubrick, the director of directed the shining, um, amongst other movies, uh, Speaker 5 34:17 um, Speaker 0 34:18 full metal jacket, cork recordings, et cetera like that Stanley Kubrick, uh, in 2001, he directed as well that he did such a good job in tooth and that movie 2001, that NASA actually hires them to fake the moon landing. And the conspiracy theory kind of extends and says the shining. There's a way to watch the movie, the shining that Kubrick is kind of admitting in the movie that he faked the moon landing because the little boy in the movie at one point is wearing, right. Speaker 5 34:48 Uh, um, Speaker 0 34:51 a sweater that's basically celebrates the moon landing. Um, but it's, I mean, the evidence, the key evidence for that is that those pictures where there are no stars in the background and the other P keys key piece of evidence is this serious doubt that the United States could ever actually put people on the moon. And you know, the moon landing conspiracy theories still persist. I hear people all the time who were like, Hey, did we really land on the moon? Um, and I, you know, um, we have less stuff up there. Um, you can shoot a laser, there's a reflector up on the moon that she can like bounce stuff of, like to prove we put something up there. Like it's, it's perplexing to me what someone has to gain for believing by believing in a, a faked moon landing. Speaker 3 35:50 Well, that's always my question. When I hear people say stuff like this, I want to know what would the motivation be behind staging such an elaborate hoax that has so many people trying to keep a secret. And sometimes, so with the Apollo 11 I get an answer that I'm like, well, I mean, I guess you know, but no, the answer is typically, well, we're in the cold war and we were trying to show off to the Russians. We have more technology than you. We're able to do this and you are not, you know, all this kind of stuff. And so that's where that conspiracy theory is rooted. But then when you get into the flat earth stuff, I've never heard a plausible explanation as to why we would be lied to about the earth being round. Like there's no, to me, I don't see any purpose behind that. So many conspiracy theories or explained why, well, they're trying to do this right, but there's no explanation for what anybody would be trying to do by tricking us into thinking the earth is round Speaker 0 36:56 undermine religion Speaker 3 36:59 may. Yeah. I mean, maybe. And I think that a lot of these people who think the earth is flat are deeply religious people. And so again, it gets into this problem of w, I mean, are we dismissive of people's faith? Do we just say they're crazy. I mean, because all religion is rooted in some pretty nutty stuff, right? But we kind of accept it, right? Like, okay, there's talking snakes and there's, you know, I mean all that kind of stuff. Right? And we, we don't just say people, Oh, Christians are nuts. I mean, maybe some people would say that, but I mean, where is the line between criticizing people for their faith and criticizing them for their belief in an alternate theory for something? And I mean, when I watched this documentary, I thought, wow. I mean, I, I, I'm conflicted in my feelings cause I hate to feel dismissive toward people. I think that it's rude. Speaker 0 37:57 Right. So what was the most bizarre conspiracy theory as you were researching for this week's episode? What was the most bizarre when you found Speaker 6 38:07 <inaudible>? Speaker 3 38:09 Um, I, the <inaudible> flat earth documentary was pretty, it's pretty bizarre to me. And it, what's more bizarre is the, is the widespread belief of this. And what I would like to say about that though, is that the internet really fuels this because we have a bunch of people who would ordinarily never to one another or never be exposed to one another who are all of a sudden linked in a forum where there's, you know, I think that they said in the <inaudible> documentary that the Facebook group for this society's like 60,000 people, right? So you have 60,000 people, which is not a huge amount of people speaking generally, right about the population of the U S and then of course the population in the world. It's not a lot of people, but it's 60,000 people who are now in the same space talking about something and they're speaking in a vacuum to one another and they're only providing evidence one another. Speaker 3 39:10 And then there's this extremely dangerous cognitive dissonance that takes place because they continue to proport these beliefs to one another back and forth. And they get more bold and more excitable. And, and they're just in this conversation with people who are like minded. Whereas a hundred years ago, maybe someone has some fringe belief, but there isn't a massive way for people to collect and you know, and like organize based on that belief. So I think the internet is kind of created this new vehicle for the spread of the theories. But for me, the flat earth one, I mean that's, and then then I got into, I also came across something about like the reptilian people who live on the moon or something like that. I mean, yeah. And that's, yeah. Oh my God. That man, I mean, I, I am so troubled by the things that he says and I think that he preys on people's fears and that really is upsetting. You know, he capitalizes and preys on people's fears and that's so disturbing. And so many of the things I came across like, you know, making the frogs gay or whatever from Alex Jones. I mean, yeah, I mean, we're laughing, but it's super dangerous. Speaker 0 40:30 Well, so one that we kind of talked about as we were getting ready to do the podcast, um, the Atlanta child murders. Um, Speaker 0 40:39 and you know, there's a TV show right now on that's I am enjoying immensely that it sees in season two and season two cover had some episodes to deal with that. But the Atlanta child murders, eventually there's this one guy who's convicted but designing convicted of killing any of the kids he's convicted of killing, um, one or two adults. But, um, the Atlanta child murders, these are young black boys almost completely right, that are being killed. And the conspiracy theories about it range from, Oh, what I would say are antisemetic where they talk about there's this cabal of Satan worshiping New York, Jewish people who were coming down and kidnapping these kids or having them kidnapped to using a satanic rituals. And you get a lot prominent Jewish people in New York mentioned as part of the, this cabal, um, to things that maybe reveal broader anxieties in the African American community in a place like Atlanta where there's this other thread where it's the government sending doctors into secretly experiment on these kids, like their kids fears. Right. Explain that. Explain why that's not, that's not coming out of left field. Speaker 3 42:05 It's not coming out of left field for the black community in the United States has historically been exposed to medical experimentation, sterilization, stay in government, sponsor terrorism essentially to their bodies over centuries. And I mean the most obvious, you know, of this as slavery of course, but the medical profession, so many developments in the medical profession are owed to experimentation on black bodies. The gynecological profession is founded in the 19th century based on the desire to breed more slaves. And so there's a deep seated fear of government and of medical professionals in the black community and it runs deep and oral tradition and um, you know, theories that run through communities that that's rooted in a lot of truth. But fear that that comes out of actual events. Speaker 0 43:07 Well from 1932 to 1972, the Tuskegee experiment happens. Speaker 3 43:11 Absolutely. And that then confirmed, right. Speaker 0 43:14 And this is a federal agency. This is public health service offers medical care to these black men, um, sharecroppers and they end up not treating men who get syphilis so they can witness what happens when syphilis is untreated. Speaker 3 43:34 Well and don't they give them syphilis. Speaker 0 43:37 Um, maybe I think that's one of the things that they may very well have. I uh, considering everything else they do during it, that's kind of documented. I, it wouldn't surprise me at all, but we know at the very least they are not treating people who have syphilis because they want to see what it looks like. Progress is exactly right. So, I mean that ends in 1972 the Atlanta child murders are in 79 80 and 81 that's not, that's, that is a blink of an eye between those two things. So it doesn't surprise me that one anxiety within the African American community would be, Hey, this is, these are probably government doctors that are kidnapping our kids. Um, and it's, and it's interesting, the public relationship with healthcare officials is really telling in the gay community kind of not the very earliest years of the AIDS crisis, but kind of a few years in conspiracy theorist started to emerge that this was the CDC, that the CDC had released this within the gay community. Uh, it's kind of twofold. One was to kind of see how this would've spread, but the other was to, to basically kill the gay community in the United States. Um, Speaker 0 45:00 that one I think also reveals community anxiety about its relationship with the government. Right. That, that, that, you know, it was easy for people in the community to say, well, of course they would do something like this. Look what they've done in the past. Um, so I definitely think you're right. I think there are conspiracy theories that we can kind of say, look, I understand why these historical actors believed this because they had a lot of previous experiment experience with people who would lend them, lead them to believe maybe this is possible. Um, Speaker 4 45:37 okay, Speaker 0 45:39 let's, let's kind of finish today with a discussion about what made the baby the most grant. I don't know if it's a conspiracy theory. Um, this is the whole constitutional convention thing. I mean, uh, and there's a lot of stuff that kind of spirals out of the constitution and, uh, conspiracy theories about what's going on. I mean, the article's Confederation, the conspiracy theory version goes, and I don't know whether it counts as a conspiracy theory. Our constitution is illegal because the articles of Confederation authorized a constitutional convention, but it wasn't to make a new constitution. It was to revise the articles Confederation. And since the original authorization was just to revise those articles, the constitution that emerges out of it is, is a legitimate, Speaker 4 46:38 um, Speaker 0 46:40 and the reason I think it may be does reach the threshold of conspiracy theory is during the process. Actually, Luther Martin, I'm from Maryland actually says, you know, this cabal is covertly trying to destroy the power of the States and create a one general government. Speaker 4 47:01 Yeah. Speaker 0 47:01 To rule the nation. Uh, I mean there's, that is a reality if the difference between the articles of Confederation of the constitution. Correct. Speaker 3 47:09 Yeah. And so that's again where you kind of blur the line of is it a conspiracy or is it something that's actually happening because it is happening. And, and that is again, where we get into the conversation about, well, what is the definition of conspiracy? And if you think about conspiring, that means like people getting together kind of covertly to hatch a plan or a scheme. And that does happen. And that is the goal. They do want to destroy the articles of Confederation. So then it's not a conspiracy theory. And, Speaker 5 47:44 eh, Speaker 3 47:46 I think that we use the phrase today pejoratively, right? It's like to dismiss something that Speaker 0 47:53 I don't think we, I don't think anybody says something. It's conspiracy theory when they like what is being said, Speaker 3 47:58 right? So a conspiracy theory is in the eyes of the beholder, right? We get to pick and choose what we think is a conspiracy, meaning that it's just bonkers versus something that is history or that it happened. Right? Right. Speaker 0 48:14 Yeah, it's, it's, I mean, the constitutional convention, I mean, there's just, it's definitely a conspiracy because they meet in secret. These are not public meetings. Um, they don't even let the minutes of the debates get published. Speaker 5 48:31 Um, Speaker 0 48:32 and so people don't really know what they're talking about. Uh, now I think where it might move to conspiracy theory is the, are the allegations that once it's sent to the States to be ratified, they're kind of shenanigans going on in this States, then it might kind of reach to conspiracy theory, right? Where it's like, well, are there, aren't there? Um, Speaker 5 48:55 <inaudible> Speaker 0 48:55 you know, obviously if you don't like the way your state votes in the ratification process, maybe you would argue, look, there's a conspiracy to kind of, Speaker 3 49:04 well, and that's exactly the point, right, is it becomes a conspiracy when you don't like the outcome. That's when it becomes a conspiracy. Because before that, it's, it's innocuous when it turns into an outcome you don't like. And we see this in present day, right? When, when something doesn't go, uh, per certain person's way or particular groups way, um, uh, political parties way, the conspiracy theories abound. And this, this is bi-partisan. It's on both sides. But it's always the theories come out when people are dissatisfied with the outcome. And there's always going to be people who are just satisfied with the outcome, right? Nobody's ever gonna be Speaker 0 49:43 well, I mean, it's right. So Hofstetter in his classic article says, these are the dispossessed, right? The dispossessed are the ones that are likely to buy into these conspiracy theories. Um, they're the ones who kind of embrace them the most wholeheartedly. I mean, which kind of brings me to something as, as kind of a new Yorker that comes up periodically, it rears its ugly head or these nine 11 conspiracy theories. Speaker 5 50:11 Um, Speaker 0 50:12 I am just who has something to gain from this conspiracy theory? Speaker 3 50:19 I keep asking myself that question too, because this is one that I've had to combat recently in class, um, when, cause it was 11th in class and I had several students who said, well, you know, that didn't actually happen the way that it did. And I remember watching it. I mean, you were there. And so it's hard. It's hard to talk to people when they think that because, and I mean it's us too that were uncomfortable and fearful. But what, what would someone have to gain by curing Americans? Speaker 0 50:56 It's hard, right? Not really. Well, I mean what I entered, what I wonder is what do they, Speaker 7 51:04 okay, Speaker 0 51:04 so somebody who kind of, um, deals in these nine 11 conspiracy theories, I mean, what, what does it help them do? Like, what do they, how does it help them sleep better at night by, I mean, is that what this is about? But do they not want to think that, you know, a handful of terrorists and a couple of planes can do this. And I think that may be part of it, especially when you get to things like, um, mass murder events or, or mass shooting events or, or terrorist acts like this. Maybe it's a little more comfortable to say, look, it wasn't just one person or a couple of crazy people, it was this whole vast cabal that had to work together to do this there. Therefore, maybe I'm not as vulnerable as I'm fearful. I may be. Speaker 3 52:01 I think that that's part of it. I think people are seeking truth. That's, and that's what it is, right? That's what they call themselves. Right. And I don't think that they're out trying to cause a problem. I think that they're so full of fear and anxiety that they're looking for answers to something that that's not explainable because evil is so difficult for humans to cope with. And you know, this may be a little farfetched, but I'm gonna throw it out there, is that like some of it is a little bit rooted in some racism because the idea that like, well these terrorists, these backwards Muslim terrorists couldn't possibly carry out such an elaborate scheme. It would have to be intelligent. You have government to do. I'm saying like, it's kind of rooted in some racism. It's just like, unfortunately when you turn on the history channel, the most popular show on the history channel as what ancient aliens and that show in and of itself is rooted in this racist idea that like, well, Egypt couldn't have possibly built the pyramids. It had to be aliens. Right? Speaker 0 53:13 Well, I dunno, is it a G? I mean, Egyptians, they're like a gypsus may or may not. I think it's the Mayans. They're the ones they go for the Mayans and the Incas. Right? They're like in the Aztecs, they're like these Bezo Americans and South, they could not have done this because they're not even remotely related to white. Speaker 3 53:29 They're not sophisticated enough to do that. And so I think a lot of conspiracy theories that are bound, um, for explanations, it's like, well it has to be the white government, right? That's just so intelligent and organized and powerful that will, they would have to be behind something like this. So many, so many conspiracy theories. If you really like break them down, they kind of end up at that place and that's super uncomfortable. And when you just ask people again and again, you're just like, ask a bunch of questions, like eventually you can kind of lead them to that and then they're like, Oh Speaker 0 54:07 well I mean so, so what do you do in the classroom with this? I mean, what do you do with, so as student kind of launches into kind of a nine 11 truth or movement moment and you know, my experience with nine 11 true Thurs um, it gets to an antisemitic place pretty quickly. Um, cause usually, usually one of the first piece of evidence they trot out that something nefarious is going on is they say, well, you know, no Jewish people showed up for work that day, which is patently false. I know Jewish people. I know, right? I know Jewish people who died that day. Yeah. Like I in the towers. Um, friends I know, uh, had family members who died, um, you know, Speaker 3 54:55 10% of the victims of nine 11 were Jewish, which is a huge percentage when you look at the percentage of Jewish people in the United States. Right, right. That's just false. I haven't had students roll that one out to me. Um, but a lot of them are yourself lucky. Well I know, I know, I know it, it can get there, but the ones that I've spoken to, they, they like to point to um, the evidence based on like architects and physicists who say like, well this couldn't have possibly happened in the ER. It was a crime scene and it wasn't treated as such. And they didn't test the steel to see if there was explosive materials on the seal. And there's just no way to possibly say that there was an explosives involved and they always go, the jet fuel can't melt steel beams route. And I think that if you're looking for us theory, you can find it. And you can find an expert, and I'm using quotes right now to support your theory because there are, you know, something like 1500 architects and physicists and stuff who've signed on to this movement. So you can find people to offer you evidence, but you can find just as much evidence to the contrary if not more. Speaker 0 56:14 Well, I think, I think what's interesting with that is virtually every architectural and engineering professional has come out publicly denouncing that and saying this is not how the majority of engineers and architects, Speaker 3 56:31 yeah. And it's, it's been re litigated so many times and yes, in 2019 most people have kind of turned their back on this and said, no, that's actually not the case. But if you're out there looking, so say, you know, you have, uh, a student who saying this, you're like, well, show me your evidence and then they bring you evidence from somebody like a scholar or some something like, you know, like someone that we would usually take evidence from. It is difficult to say, well, that's just not true evidence because this person is an expert. Right. And so it can get, if you get kind of fuzzy when you're trying, cause people can just believe what they want. Right. It's Speaker 0 57:20 me. So what do we do in the classroom with it? I mean that's the, that's kind of the, the promise I made when we talked about this episode is we would kind of, how do you deal with stuff like this? Because I think it also gives kind of a path for dealing with other views students may come into the classroom with that are a problem. Um, and I'm not talking about everybody being lockstep in the same, having the same ideas about everything, but I'm talking about when students come in with kind of just wild ideas. Um, you know, I had a student when I was teaching the first part of the U S sequence, who, who basically said, you know, everything went to hell once women were able to kind of determine their own lives. I've heard that one. Um, yeah. And, and he says everything was really perfect before that. And once that happened, things really just degenerated rapidly. And you know, that one, you've got to deal with Speaker 3 58:27 <inaudible> theory because that's not just like, Oh, there was some, you know, plan, that's just a massage adonistic shitty opinion, you know. But it's not a conspiracy theory that's just like, wow, you have a really, like you have an opinion about something that happened that's not really rooted in any, Speaker 0 58:49 but I mean, what would you do if a student came into your class and said, well everybody knows Jewish people eat Christian babies. Speaker 3 58:56 Well that's what is the evidence for that? It's patently, Speaker 0 58:59 well, and then maybe they would, I mean, but the whole thing is, is you wouldn't, you could not let that just stand. No, of course you would have to immediately confront that and be like, no, that's patently false. Um, that's, you know Speaker 3 59:14 why they thought that though too. I mean, where is that coming from? And that's not to entertain it, it's just to kind of get to the root of what is, Speaker 0 59:23 but see, that's right. I mean, see that's the thing as I think if you, one of the issues with you maybe bringing up, well what's your evidence is there, the student might get the impression you're entertaining this. And I think sometimes you need to do that on the things you need to do. But other times it's just like, no. You know, it's two planes brought down the towers. Um, the planes were piloted by a terrorist who had hijacked the planes. You know, 3000 people died that day. You know, these are the, you know, yeah. I mean, maybe that's the best way to handle this. This is to restate what we know. Speaker 3 00:04 So that's what I did. I said, I said, look, I'm going to state what happened as I know it happened and watched it happen. Right. I mean, we watched these events unfold and <inaudible> there was never an event in human history like this. Never before had something like this house Speaker 0 00:25 challenger. Speaker 6 00:26 Hmm. Speaker 3 00:27 That planes crash the buildings and they fell down. No, no, no, no. That's <inaudible> based on the <inaudible> of it. I'm saying based on the physics, cause they'll say, well the buildings were meant to withstand that buildings are not meant to withstand jets flying into them. Like so it hadn't happened before. So you can't say, well that couldn't have possibly happened. Well it did happen. You know what I'm saying? Like so it's like this is what, these are the chain of events and I'm not going to change your mind. But like you have to understand that like this is, this is the, you know, accepted version of, of events. Right? Speaker 0 01:09 Yeah. I, it's, you know, it's, it's that odd thing where we want students to be intellectually curious and I think that's a good thing to cultivate in them. I also think it's a good skill to cultivate kind of the ability to recognize credible sources versus questionable sources and kind of walk them through how you do that. But at the end of the day, sometimes you're just going to have very fringe ideas presented. And I think, you know, I think that's maybe the best tactic is to kind of restate what we know. And then D just to move the topic to something else at that point. Speaker 3 01:47 So that's what I did. Yeah. When it happened, he handled this like, look, this is, this is the chain of events cause I almost went in prepared for this to happen. Um, and I said like this is the chain of events and this is, you know, like the historical perspective of it and all of that. And I just said we need to move on cause like this class is about the 19th century. Right. It's not about, so I was just thinking when they moved past it. Yeah. But I think, I think everybody believes in a theory everybody does in at least one. Speaker 0 02:23 Okay. Speaker 3 02:23 Some just happen to be more French than others and some just more bizarre than others and some more offensive than others because I would don't you find those theories about nine 11 to be offensive to you as somebody who was there and witnessed it, Speaker 0 02:38 right? Yeah. I mean I had somebody years later, um, say, well maybe you didn't see what she thought she saw. Like, okay, I mean sure. I guess maybe the government sprayed us all with some kind of gas before they ran the planes. And it just, it doesn't make any sense. Right. The conspiracy theory explanations for nine 11 to me don't make any sense. And I think it denigrates the deaths of the people who died that, uh, the people who were killed that day. Um, it denigrates kind of what the nation tried to do in the aftermath that denigrates soldiers who kind of lost their lives being sent overseas to fight in the wake of that. I mean, I think it denigrates all of that and you know, I think, and I think there are other ones as well. I mean, for that one kind of touches me, but I think there are other conspiracies that kind of hurt other people. I know that, um, some of the parents from Sandy hook sued Alex Jones. Speaker 3 03:45 I've got, it wasn't that atrocious Speaker 0 03:49 because yeah, they will. Yeah. They sued them in one because they said, you know, you can't say this. Our child was a real person who died. This wasn't a false flag where these children never existed. These children existed. And were killed. Um, this isn't a vast government conspiracy to take away your rights. This was, you know, this tragic event. And we can talk about kind of what led to it, but you know, at the end of the day, these children are dead. Um, they're not flicking somebody Speaker 3 04:21 is that so many of these mass shooters when we've looked into their internet usage and their searches and their Twitter accounts, all this kind of stuff. So many of them are involved in conspiracy fringe theory groups. And so one of the important things I think to, to touch on is like connecting with these fringe ideas can sometimes lead to violence and has and will continue to do so. Because when people are acting out of fear, I think that that violent things happen as a result of it. And so many of these mass shooters, you know, you check out, they're like Reddit activity and they're in these like super strange threads and they're talking about flat earth and government taking away guns and all stuff. And again, it's not to be dismissive, but it's like the evidence is there and that's what I'm working on. But the evidence is there to suggest that a lot of people who traffic and conspiracy theories Speaker 0 05:31 end up violent. Right. Whew. Well, I didn't think we'd in today's episode and kind of a dark space, but I guess we will have a question for you. What, okay, go ahead. Speaker 3 05:45 What is one conspiracy theory you believe in? Wholeheartedly. Speaker 0 05:52 What is one conspiracy theory? I believe in wholeheartedly. Speaker 7 05:58 Yeah. Speaker 0 06:01 You know, me, I try to be a very rational guy. I'm trying to think if there's any, I believe in Speaker 3 06:08 you must, you can't, you can't get out of it. Speaker 0 06:12 Um, I don't, I don't think I do. I honestly, I'm trying to think of any, Oh, well I think, okay. I do have a conspiracy theory, I believe in. Um, let me get the details real quick. I'm looking this up. This is what I believe in. Um, uh, if, if my dad listens to this, he'll like laugh because, um, so this is called the snow cloud game. This is says stupid flood. So it's the 1992, uh, or 1982 playoffs. Um, and it's the Miami dolphins versus the new England Patriots and it was just snowing buckets. It's in December, snowing buckets and nobody's scoring and the game's like zero, zero in the fourth quarter. And, uh, Miami tries to make a kick and they miss and then the Patriots get kind of within field goal range and suddenly they bring this snow, plow out. This guy, Mark Henderson brings Henderson, brings his snow plows in, plows the space for the Patriots to kick and he kicks in, wins they win three to nothing. I mean, I guess that's a conspiracy theory because I think the Patriots like instructed him to do it now. He said for years afterwards he did it on his own, um, that he was never instructed to do this. But I mean, I think that's the closest I get to a conspiracy theory that I believe in. Um, Speaker 3 07:55 that's a conspiracy theory though. And there's a motivation for it, right? Like they're motivated by winning a game and all that. So like that works. Speaker 0 08:04 I guess that's the only one I can think on. What about you Speaker 3 08:09 see, and I can answer too quickly, but I don't think Kurt Cobain killed himself. Speaker 0 08:15 Oh no. Speaker 3 08:19 Heroin in his system to pull a trigger. Like it just doesn't make sense. Speaker 0 08:26 Okay. Speaker 3 08:31 Private hall. But that's the one and I, I think that that's really like the only one that I'm like, okay. And I mean, Philly pretty rational person. I am a pretty rational person as well. It's pretty silly I guess. But I, um, a lot of people ask me because I, I really liked the Royal family. Like, do you think the queen killed Diana? I'm like, no, I don't. Right. Like people want me to believe in that one. But I think it's the Kurt Cobain one that I, I hold on to, but I also know it's, I also know it's not totally, it's not totally rational, so, Speaker 0 09:04 Oh, wow. Uh, thanks for joining us today. Um, hopefully this has been an entertaining discussion of conspiracies. I'd invite you in the comment section on our webpage, an incomplete history.com to leave comments about the subset things you liked. Maybe there's some conspiracies and American history you've heard of. You want us to kind of touch on them? Talk about that a little bit. We can do another episode. We'll do a followup. Has said, uh, you're always free to kind of post, uh, suggestions for topics for future episodes. Um, also, if you have not left a rating and review for us on Apple podcast, please do so. Uh, you can find us there, Apple podcast, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Um, I'm Jeff, thanks for joining us on an incomplete history. Until next time. Speaker 1 09:55 <inaudible>.