Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00 So today on an incomplete history, we're trying something a little bit different, Hillary, and are stepping out of our comfort zones. A little bit, talking about U S foreign relations, specifically the United States, and Iran's kind of a tortured history of foreign relations. Uh, this is, you know, the United States had around, had been in the news lately. Their relationship always seems to be, uh, this adversarial, um, relationship today. Hopefully we'll unpack that a little bit, show how it hasn't always been like that and maybe pinpoint some places where things went wrong. Uh, it should be fun. Uh, I know, uh, I learned a lot. Hillary said she learned a lot researching this topic as well. So join us today on an incomplete history.
Speaker 1 00:47 <inaudible>
Speaker 0 01:07 hello and welcome to an incomplete history.
Speaker 3 01:10 I'm Hillary and, and Jeff were your hosts for this weekly history podcast.
Speaker 0 01:17 So, uh, Iran and the United States.
Speaker 3 01:22 Yes. Here we are.
Speaker 0 01:24 Here we are. Um, we had an interesting conversation about whether to actually do this topic and record it or not. I think it's useful. Who knows?
Speaker 3 01:35 I asked several people what they thought of us doing this and the general consensus was, you know, I don't really know a lot about us and Ronnie in relation. So that would be really good to know that. So I got a lot of people saying that they wanted it and they wanted to know about it, but I also caution them like this isn't my specialty, just so you know. But I did spend time researching and I am, I have taught political science before and covered a lot of this stuff, but I do have to say it's not my area. So if somebody's out there that's upset by something, we say, let us know so that way we can address it.
Speaker 0 02:10 Right, right. Well, I mean you're a brilliant historian. You just going to apply that critical eye to this topic. Right?
Speaker 3 02:19 Yeah. That's all I'm trying for. I think it's going to be great. Oh, and I've also said too that like 20th centuries, you know.
Speaker 0 02:30 Well, that's the thing is I think we're both, this is, you know, Hillary and I have so much in common and one of the things we have in common is we get very kind of antsy about teaching history like after the Vietnam war. Cause it's cause it's not really history, it's journalism kind of. Um, I mean I guess you can make history out of it, but it's, it's kind of difficult and this is more recent. At least the bulk of what we're going to talk about is more recent. Um, but I, I think it's important, uh, you know, granted we're sitting, we're not quite where we were right at the beginning of the year. Um, as far as people thinking world war three was going to break out at any level. But I think the United States, Iran is kind of tortured relationship is going to stick with us for a while. And I think it's important. People understand kind of what, what led to this, um, was anybody at fault? Why were they at fault? Uh, has anybody tried to fix it? Things like that. I think we can get to all of these today. Um, but before we do that, how's the weather?
Speaker 3 03:41 Um, erratic. That's the best way to describe it. I mean it's like the weather here is like Powerball numbers being drawn 54, 23, 1975. I mean it's, you just don't know.
Speaker 0 03:59 So Jenny and Dobie were like running around in floodwaters. What was that all?
Speaker 3 04:03 Yeah, so it rained. It's been raining a lot, but then we had a huge storm a couple of nights ago and it flooded the whole dog park. I mean, flooded, flooded. I mean they were like up to their bellies in the water and so they wanted to go play and I wasn't, you know, gonna be a killjoy. The whole ride homed didn't small grape, but they had <inaudible>
Speaker 0 04:22 cause that wasn't just water. If it was dog park that was flooded. No, it was like Kui water. They had a great time. Well that's, yeah, I mean talks, love filth.
Speaker 3 04:35 Yes. And I've hosted my own and everything and made sure they didn't drink the pool water.
Speaker 0 04:42 Are you sure you Dhabi didn't drink any pool? Water?
Speaker 3 04:44 I mean, I tried to not let him, how's <inaudible> but it's free.
Speaker 0 04:51 We're trying to get rain. It's, I mean freezing for San Diego. It's been in the forties at night. It is ridiculously cold for San Diego. It is not cold for most of the rest of the country. Um, it's trying to rain. It's tried to rain all day. We'll see if we, our rain starts up again, but uh, Irfan and the United States. Um, I was a little surprised at how late our relations started with Iran.
Speaker 4 05:19 Okay.
Speaker 3 05:20 Well that's where I think that, um, I wanted to clarify where you wanted to actually start because I mean, yes, our relationship with Iran is, is kind of later like 1950s right? Is where we really start our involvement. But your mom's Western relationship goes back to the early 20th century.
Speaker 0 05:43 Well, but I mean we even 1850 there's this move to mutually recognize one another. Conflict really starts to begin though. Yeah. No conflict starts in the 19, but, but like our relationship, I don't know, there's this 1850 thing. There is something that sounds like it's a little bit of conflict. So in 1850, there's this first diplomatic contact between the United States and the kingdom of Persia. Um, and
Speaker 5 06:14 uh,
Speaker 0 06:16 to Persian chars to fairs had kind of signaled through the French government, I think that they wanted diplomatic relations with the United States. And so they started to move forward to do this. And uh, they finalized a treaty in November of 1851 and part of that treaty, the Senate,
Speaker 5 06:36 Mmm,
Speaker 0 06:38 had included most favored nation, uh, language in the treaty and the Persian government took no action on it. Um, so the kind of this treaty of 1851 didn't really go into effect. So our actual diplomatic affair, uh, relations with Iran, it's 30 more years, it's 1883 is when we finally exchange kind of ambassadors. And there's this formal diplomatic relations and those holds for almost a hundred years. So in 18, 1980, however, diplomatic relations are seven. And I think that's kind of the bulk of what we want to talk about today is how do we start in 1883 with a, you know, this a full diplomatic relations to severing ties completely by 1980
Speaker 3 07:26 well and to kind of touch a little bit more on the 19th century and leaving a little bit before that, you mentioned the kingdom of Persia. Like the United States had a fascination with all things Persian in the colonial era and onward. Um, there, there's a mutual fascination between the two groups though there's not diplomacy or relationship and globalization really, you know, is not, had such a strong hold at this moment and especially in relation to these two regions. But there is a mutual fascination between the two. And you, you mentioned that these diplomatic relationships or this relationship kind of holds for a hundred years and that's, that's kind of interesting, right? To think that there was a very long period of kind of just like this chill relationship between the two countries. And we often think that that every country in the middle East has always had a tension with the United States because they're like religiously extreme. But that's one thing that I really wanted to focus on for this discussion is that Iran hasn't always been extremely religious. And as a matter of fact was not really extremely religious until the revolution in 1979 so to kind of toss out maybe some of your preconceived notions about the country of Iran, the Persian people and relationships with the United States as being solely on religion or religious difference, that may not be a useful form of analysis until the 1979 revolution.
Speaker 0 09:04 Right? So, I mean, we can move to 1950s but I mean, I think one thing I found out that I didn't know much about was world war II.
Speaker 5 09:15 Mmm.
Speaker 0 09:17 The allies invade Iran in world war II and it's not a, an enemy combatant nation. This is a little surprising, um,
Speaker 3 09:30 surprising based on the relationship with oil because the Anglo Persian starts in the early 20th century, the better government buys you 1% of shares of a the Persian oil company. That's what starts BP in 1914. Right? I mean, it makes sense to me that it's such an oil rich country and that's where the relationship starts to disintegrate, right? Is that the Iranian people are like, well, actually we want the money from our own oil. And the British are like, well, what do you mean you want your own money?
Speaker 0 10:01 Well, that's, yeah. Yeah. That's the thing is, uh, you know, without, with leaving oil out of the equation, it seems odd, but once you put an oil in, um, and the, and a book that I want to really recommend, and I'll mention it again at the end is Timothy Mitchell's carbon democracy. He talks a lot about this. Um, he talks about how oil kind of changes the way the U S engages in foreign policy and what happens across the 20th century and how kind of oil has indelibly influenced the way we relate to other nations. But Iran is, you know, this petroleum rich nation and the allies, particularly Britain and the Soviet union are worried that the shock,
Speaker 5 10:40 Mmm
Speaker 0 10:42 is going to, um, align with the notch with Nazi Germany. And, um, they, they think they'd rather have a son on the throne. Um, and they, during the war they occupied Iran. They forced the abdication of the first Pallavi a Monarch. Now the palava is replaced, um, another dynasty called the <inaudible> jars. And the Qatar dynasty is gonna come up again in the 1950s. Um, and they put crown Prince Muhammad on the, the, the throne. Um, and it's Iran scene is so important to allied victory. I mean, cha Churchill calls it the bridge to a victory for the allies. Um, you know, this is seen as an essential thing to stop Nazi Germany from getting a hold of, of kind of middle Eastern oil.
Speaker 6 11:40 <inaudible>
Speaker 3 11:40 one is interesting thinking about the father son relationship, the Shaw taking over from his father. The two were so different because Reza Pahlavi from 1925 to 1941 was the Shah and he was the sort of revered political militaristic leader. He was seeing seen as strong and um, across IV. And yes, by 1941 the United States and the Western powers do get nervous about where his loyalties might lie and where his interests might lie. And so they do opt for his son who is a little more academic. I think that I saw some descriptions of him. He's academic, he speaks several languages, he's educated, he was, you know, the crown Prince, right? So he of course comes from um, this kind of dynastic circumstance and money and education and all these things. And they see him as far more malleable than his father. And so when he takes over from 1941 to 1979, there's a very positive relationship between him and the Western powers. And that's a really interesting point that we can get into a little bit later. But about the Shaw and the white revolution. I mean this Shaw, the son Mohammad dual crown Prince is westernized and he wants to have a stronger relationship with the West. And so the United States and the, the Western powers kind of supporting his leadership in Iran. Um, it points to some of the issues that come about with the revolution that people are trying to push back against that
Speaker 7 13:24 <inaudible>
Speaker 0 13:25 well, I mean he's very, he's pro Western. Um, and uh, you know, the, the Anglo Iranian oil company is really gets, it's kind of hooks into the nation at this point and is trouble right. For the Iranian people. Um, I mean this, the invasion, the ally invasion and the kind of, um, forced advocation of the throne, uh, by his father. This is all at the kind of against the Iranian people, right? The Iranian people are not kind of giving permission for this to happen. It's not like that. The first Pallavi Monarch was seen as this desperate, right. He was fairly popular.
Speaker 3 14:12 I think it's good to make it clear from the beginning here that no decision that is made on behalf of Western powers who have intervened in Iranian policy and co economics and foreign Paul, whatever, no decision that's been made has been to help or favor the Persian people ever. It's all about blessed. So they don't really care whether the people like him or not.
Speaker 0 14:43 But I mean, this is very, this is very different than the U S with Iraq, right. In the Iraq war where we're extensively going over there to depose it and
Speaker 3 14:52 supported against the Iranians in the 1980s so,
Speaker 0 14:57 right. But I mean, they're not even using the rhetoric of we want to help the Iranian people.
Speaker 3 15:03 No, because that's not rhetoric that anybody, the American people would be even interested in listening to at that point. Right, right, right. There's a callousness towards oil rich countries and Venezuela and Iran are friends because of this. Right,
Speaker 0 15:20 right. So fast forward after the war to the 1950s I'm Mohammad Reza Pahlavi is in, is the Shah, but it's a constitutional monarchy. Right. Which means there's a prime minister
Speaker 3 15:38 who was democratically elected by the rowing.
Speaker 0 15:43 Yeah. And I told you that the Kagera dynasty was going to come back into this because boasted deck is and descendant of the Kajaro dynasty and he's prime minister and he's very left. Um, I, I think, I think it's a stretch to call him socialist.
Speaker 3 16:02 I'll call him a communist war. I then, well I think that's the Anglo Iranian oil company. Didn't know, but think about the time period. Right? So we're thinking about the 1950s and everyone's a communist. Right. But they identified him as a communist. I would say he was more of a socialist. I mean he was more about nationalizing the oil to try to help you, you people and you know, democratically elected by, uh, Iranian people. And so the United States and Western powers are quick to say like, Hey, this guy's going to start causing us problems because he has the interest of his own people and the interest of his people go against the interests of the Western powers.
Speaker 0 16:43 And so then what, right. Well, I mean before that though, most of that, I mean, he doesn't move to nationalize the oil company first. He actually just says the Iranian people need a share of this company. It's our oil. Like we need a share of this. And the Anglo Iranian oil company kind of flatly denies it and most of the deck starts to move to nationalize the oil company. And it's interesting cause the 1950s are a moment where nationalizing of energy or of a industry is happening at various points all over the world. And it is, it would be seen in places like Washington is communist, right? That this is the first step in a communist takeover, uh, that most of next gonna lead kind of a revolution that's going to depose this kind of pro Western, um, Monarch, um, and install a puppet regime that's beholden to Moscow basically. Um, no evidence of that. But, uh, the CIA and M I six participate along with help from the, uh, Anglo Iranian oil company was something the U S intelligence agencies called operation Ajax. Um, and it's basically a queue. Um, they got these pro royalist, um, Arabians, um, to depose most of the deck, um, and uh, as pretty awful.
Speaker 3 18:08 Yeah. And these documents have been released by the CAA some 60 years later. So this is all out in the open. This isn't a theory, this isn't a conspiracy theory though we have talked about those in the past. Like this information was released and made public to the American people about 60 years after the fact. So relatively recently this information was confirmed. It was something that people had suspected, but it was confirmed that this was an operation to, uh, to unseat the power of a democratically elected leader in Iran in order to serve Western interests in their oil. Yeah,
Speaker 0 18:44 it's the first time a U S intelligence agency actively participates in the overthrow, our government term peace time.
Speaker 3 18:50 The first time of them,
Speaker 0 18:52 she's the first one we know out. Um, and I would say it's, I would say it probably is the first one. I mean the 1950s. It makes sense. This would be the first one. Um, and what does the Shah do? He disposes of the old constitutional monarchy. And makes himself basically an absolute moderate.
Speaker 3 19:09 Yes. And you know, again, very much aligned with Western powers. But you know what, for a lot of people in Iran, this isn't just a story about, Oh, the United States polit are on. Like for a lot of people who live there, this was a good thing for them. You know, um, what started happening in the 1960s as a result of, uh, the Shaw's leadership was the white revolution. This attempt to be more Western. And I guess that's a biased to comment on my behalf, right? It's like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, this is good. You know. But the fact is that between 1963 and 1978 under the Shaw's leadership, he launches this white revolution, increasing students from under a million to 10 million. Um, schools across the nation are opened in order to boost the economy. He understands the importance and underlying importance of education. Um, for women, women, there's a 500% increase in funding for education.
Speaker 3 20:07 Uh, women gain rights. They can have jobs, they can, um, you know, women start to gain rights, and this is going to sound crazy, but like he raises the legal age of marriage for women. He raises it to 15 from 13. And so there are water reforms that are taking place under the Shaw's leadership and under the encouragement of Western powers to, you know, to do these sorts of things, right? I mean to, to become more Western, to increase education, to increase rights of women. Um, but personal income goes up for most people living in Iran. Oil revenues are up, the economy's doing well, but this is in the meantime, upsetting a lot of conservative folks. And there's a, an undercurrent of strong conservatism that's tied to religiosity that starts to crop up as a result of this westernization. But this is why it's complicated for me. And this is why I'm not a political scientist, but it's just like, it's not, you can't talk about good or bad or you know, because for some people it's good. For some people it's bad, you know, it just, and trying to step away from it as an American and looking at it, it's like, well, the United States did bad things. You know, it's just, it gets complicated when you think about it in this way that the revolution for women in Iran was awful. Right. And I know that from Persepolis. Right, but, right.
Speaker 0 21:42 Well I would say so. I would say this what, so yeah, the show does this stuff I mean around becomes the one of the United States closest allies. It, it is, I would argue it's the United States, second closest ally in the middle East in the 1960s. Um, an incredible amount of foreign aid we give to them. At the same time though, our CIA is training this increasingly aggressive, um, secret police run by the Shah's people called Sabac S a. V. a. K. um, and you know, this becomes a real sore point, um, for a lot of people who participate eventually in the revolution. Um, the Shah uses this against anybody who kind of talks against him. Anybody who sees out of line, but also anybody who pushes back against modernization. Um, and you end up with a lot of the moms, you know, want to speak out and you've got one that speaks out the Ayatollah Khomeini and he asked to go to Paris, right?
Speaker 0 22:50 He actually has to flee Iran and go to Paris and he stays there for a while. Um, so you've got kind of this oil economy cruising on and you've got, um, a lot of, uh, uh, connections between a Radian intelligentsia and people in the United States. I mean, Iran builds these brand new universities and it's top three universities are modeled explicitly off of us university models. Um, and the Shaw himself gives kind of these grants to American universities. Um, uh, the, uh, petroleum engineering endowed chair at USC is actually endowed by the Shah of Iran. Um, I did not know that. Um, but I mean, it's, it's this really close relationship. At the same time, there's something else brewing and rod, right? You get this cooperation between universities in the United States and universities that ran and including this kind of endowed chair of petroleum engineering at the university of Southern California. Um, so really close cooperation by kind of elites in both countries, right?
Speaker 3 24:05 Yeah. There was a really strong exchange, um, of education and intellectual elites between Western countries and Iran and the United States in particular. And I learned this when I, I had this brief stint for one year working in a small university in the middle of Pennsylvania. Um, and the best thing about that job was every day I would go sit in my colleagues office who would just tell me about Iran every day because he fled the revolution. He's never allowed to go back. Um, and he told me all about the educational connections between the two countries. And, um, I became really good friends with him and his wife and his wife, um, was actually the daughter of the head of the freedom movement of Iran until he died in 2017 and he was jailed. Um, he initially worked for Komani, uh, when he was an exile in Paris.
Speaker 3 25:09 And then he was his like number two and he came back to Iran to help with the revolution but then totally disagreed with the way it was going and then was ousted from the country and he actually like was arrested several different times. He was arrested when he was in his eighties he was in a prison in like 2010 he was like 80 something years old. And my colleague would just tell me all of these stories in, in one of his stories was that he came to the United States during the 70s before the revolution to be educated and he came to the United States to be educated under this man who he ended up marrying his daughter and it's like the coolest story and he's the one who like cemented my interest in this topic and told me so much that I would have never known. But I always think back to him and think back fondly on my one year there.
Speaker 3 26:04 It's like he was like the best thing that ever happened to me of like somebody I met and just like totally enlightening me on things I had no clue about. And he would tell me stuff and I would leave and I would go back to my office and I'd just be on Wikipedia forever. Like, what happened? What happened? What happened? And so when I was going back to do this research, I was started making so many connections between all the things he had told me and the stories he told me, very personal family stories about people who were like high levels of government and all this stuff. Um, and then I would go, you know, look at them on Wikipedia and then I'm doing this research. I'm like, Oh my gosh. Like he knew everybody. And like he's still very much involved in that movement. And I won't say who he is just because he is involved in that freedom movement. But I learned a lot from him. And, and when you said that you were surprised about the connections between education, I was also surprised about that when he first told me, but then when I started researching again for this, I was like, Oh yeah, I, I remember him saying all that. So that was exciting. Yeah. So
Speaker 0 27:14 you've got all this cooperation amongst elites though, but then the average Uranian is seeing a very different situation, right? I mean, maybe the quality of life is improving health care opportunities for women, but they get the super repressive regime. Um, and it depends on who you ask, right? Right. But American officials seem kind of tone deaf to this, right. And we get Jimmy Carter, um, kind of has human rights as this big centerpiece of what, how he's going to act with other nations, right. For him. Um, human rights is going to be critical in the way the United States engages in foreign policy with other nations. At the same time, he has, um, the Shah of Iran. Um, and a new year's Eve of 1978 he toasts the Shaun says under the Shah's brilliant leadership, Iran is an Island of stability in one of those troublesome regions in the world. There is no other state figure whom I could appreciate and like more. And this just completely pisses off. Um, people who felt they've really were being persecuted under the Shaw's leadership.
Speaker 3 28:30 So that was on the new year's Eve correct that that speech was given. And so then that really does launch off revolutionary, um, rhetoric and the revolution does kick off right after that point. And you have Khomeini who is in exiled in Paris. He's been there for close to 14 years at this point. He starts writing and his writing starts circulating. And I, when I was reading about this, so this is happening in early 1979. Um, I started reading about this and thinking about the United States history and the pamphlets, right, that we've talked about before on this podcast, but early American pamphlets, I'm circulating ideas about revolution. This very same thing starts happening in late 1970s in Iran. Um, where there's revolutionary rhetoric that's being disseminated very much on the down low because like you said, because the Shaw has the backing of the United States and because they've helped create like the secret police force and there's an oppressive regime, um, this is, this revolutionary stuff is very much flying, trying to fly under the radar because it's dangerous. Right? Well, I mean it's, and
Speaker 0 29:42 you've got people who are shuttling back and forth to Paris, right? People are supporters of Khamenei are going to Paris. They meet with him there. They bring information and things that he said back with them to Iran. Uh, the, uh, Shah's secret police are kind of trying to go after these people. So it's kind of this, this vicious cycle starts to develop, right? That the, that the more they try to get the sh the Ayatollah Khomeini, his words back into Iran, the more persecuted they become, which ratchets up the rhetoric. And it's just this, and you know, we don't, historians, we don't, we're loath to say something's inevitable it. But man, it just seems by 79,
Speaker 3 30:23 yeah, cause to, I'm sorry to clarify, it's in 78 that the revolutionary stuff starts circling, but 79 is when the revolution actually goes full force, but it's in 78 because that toast by Jimmy Carter is new year's Eve. December 31st, 1977 then 1978, the entire year of 1978, you start seeing, um, uh, spring a revolution, uh, distributing of ideas, um, the exile in Paris and, and all this kind of stuff all through 1978 but one of the really important events of 1978 that I think we should touch on is August 20th, 1978, which is the theater, the movie theater that's set on fire. So August 20th. Go ahead.
Speaker 0 31:09 Right. Well, I think just a little backer over people. So I don't think people understand movie theaters. Is this flashpoint in the middle East? Um, I lived in the middle East for F for a little while. Um, movie theaters are the more conservative religiously a country is. The more looked down upon movie theaters are, um, they're seen as this kind of DIB arched Western space. Um, and if you go to kind of, uh, so go ahead and continue. Cause I think that's important to know about that even if
Speaker 3 31:44 looked down upon though, they are really, really popular places to be, particularly in 1970s, Iran, which is very much a westernized country in a way at this point. Right? And if anybody's interested in this moment, I would recommend reading the graphic novel Persepolis because it does kind of highlight the major changes that happen, particularly in reference to women during the revolution. But movie theaters are really popular and people are there. People are wanting to go into that space. And so, um, and on August 20th of 1978, a movie theater is set on fire. Over 400 people die. And blame is all of a sudden cast in all different directions. Some people blame the Shah and said that it was his secret police force that did it. And of course, the people who blame the Shah are the revolutionaries, right? So Khomeini's people, um, want to say <inaudible> rising his own people and this spurs even more revolutionary rhetoric to say, Hey, we've got to start fighting back against him. But it's never been proven that he actually did it or that his secret police actually did it. And the fact that the movie theaters are a Western space.
Speaker 0 32:59 Yeah. Well, I think this guy who ultimately gets executed Hussein talent Catalin Zed a, um, they said he did it on the Shaw's orders, but he insists that he was doing it for the revolution.
Speaker 3 33:13 Well, and that would make more sense just trying to be objective here just to say that like,
Speaker 0 33:18 <inaudible>
Speaker 3 33:19 do, we targeted this space that is traditionally a Western space, like you mentioned, but then we're able to use it and say, Oh, this is the Shah talking to people because no matter who did it, it did actually end up serving the purpose of the revolutionaries.
Speaker 0 33:35 Um, well, yeah, I mean, it, it makes more sense that way, but it's after this fire, things start to happen in quick succession, right? So you get this problematic prime minister gets appointed. Um, you get, uh, various moments where prayer gets banned. Uh, it's also really critical to understand, and this is great because when I teach things like riots, I like to talk about this. Uh, the month of Ramadan, which is a month of fasting and Islam takes place in August, um, up till the beginning of September. Um, when Ramadan happens in summer, it's pretty brutal for a lot of people cause you're not supposed to eat or drink anything. Um, during the daytime. And, um, September 4th, uh, eat, uh, eat a fitter, which is kind of this feast that celebrates the end of Ramadan happens. Um, and it's coming up and they give this, the Shah's government gives permission to have kind of a massive prayer. Um, upwards of half a million people show up for this and it's not a prayer. Right.
Speaker 8 34:45 Okay.
Speaker 0 34:45 It's a huge March that takes place in Toronto. And, um, evidently the Shah was just terrified by this. Um, and suddenly we start to get more and more protests into Iran and other places around of Ron. Um, people are now explicitly calling for our, the Ayatollah Khomeini. He's safe. Return to Iran. They're also calling for the abolition of the current governor and the creation of a new Islamic Republic. Um, and four days after this September 8th, the shot of Claire's martial law, um, and this is, this is kind of the Rubicon, right? For the Shah. There's no going back now.
Speaker 3 35:33 Yeah. And just a few short months later, I mean he's basically forced to leave the country. The Shaun, his family are forced to leave Iran by January of the following year, 1979 and then you have the Ayatollah Khomeini returned from his 14 year exile in February, so two weeks later. And so things do move quickly once they start like so declaring martial law in September because you finally, the revolution goes from being an underground rhetoric to being an outright, you know, concrete protest on the streets. And so you go from that in September to the Shaw, the Western backed Shaw, which that's kind of crazy me, right? Like he's backed so much militarily, financially all his stuff by the West, yet he is basically exiled from the country in January. And at this point, the show is really weakened. Um, not only because there aren't, you know, plea people supporting him, but he's sick. He has cancer, and he just, he's not able enough to basically to fight against us. And he remember to, at this point, he's been in the Shaw since 1941. It's 1979. Um, but him and his family are forced to leave January, 1979 and he dies about a year and a half later of cancer. And he, but he's treated in the United States for his cancer.
Speaker 0 37:03 What is the U S doing all of this? Well, the U S doesn't see any of this coming. I mean, the CIA, their reports, the CIA up until just months before this happens, says, ah, it's fine. Iran is not the quotas. Iran is not in a revolutionary or even a pre-revolutionary situation. So total breakdown in intelligence.
Speaker 3 37:26 Well, yeah, that's alarming, isn't it?
Speaker 0 37:29 Yeah. Thanks. I mean, it's, it's, so the Shah is deposed, um, and, but the revolutionary government is immediately paranoid about the CIA. Right? I mean, Aronne had this experience in 1953, the United States has already shown a willingness to engineer <inaudible> to replace a democratically leader, an elected leader in Iran. What's not to say they're going to get involved in this, which is a, uh, which is a, a revolution, right? And they're paranoid about this. And this was something interesting I found. So evidently there's this book that Kermit Roosevelt jr wrote, um, that a bunch of these arraign younger Radian students who are involved in the revolution had read or at least said, read part of it. It was called counter-coup, the struggle for the control of Iran. And they were convinced the United States was going to enter engineer counter-coup eminently. Um, so Khamenei who had previously gone to, been presented to this is this old man, this kind of Eastern mystic, um, starts to ratchet up the rhetoric. He refers to the United States as the great Satan. Um, he removes the prime minister had been under the Shah of Iran. Um, but the United States is still kind of hoping to fix the relationship at this point, um, particularly under Jimmy Carter because they don't like Carter, right? Well, yeah, because I mean, it's in their mind car. Carter's the man who was having dinner with the Shah and said, he's this great guy that's doing right. Yeah.
Speaker 0 39:16 Um, and you know, this kind of comes to head, November 4th, 1979 when, um, a group of students, um,
Speaker 0 39:30 got really mad because the Chava Ram was actually allowed in the United States for medical treatment. And I mean, this is awful. That where this guy is basically going to die, becomes kind of this flashpoint, but they storm the embassy or the embassy and they take hostages. They take, um, hostas there and they ultimately holds 52 of them for 444 days, a long time to be held hostage. It's a long, I remember this as a kid. I remember when this happened. I remember people, um, everybody was convinced it was going to be kind of a quick thing. It'd be over relatively quickly. Uh, and it dragged on. And I remember people would put up these kind of, um, mimeographed signs in their windows. You know, we were thinking of you. Some were less colorful than that. Some were saying things about what they would do to Iran, but I mean, Americans in general are very United that these diplomats, this was wrong.
Speaker 0 40:35 And from a foreign policy, kind of a diplomatic relations for you, this is kind of forbid and territory, right? You're not supposed to do this. Well even if you're gonna, even if you have a beef with the nation, you're not supposed to kind of take diplomats hostage or red cross. Right. Um, to be fair, are there CII operatives amongst the diplomats? Definitely. Um, but this, um, this goes on until 1981, basically on January 20th, 1981 is when the hostages get released, when the, um, well, so why, so there are nefarious explanations for what happens. Um, there are less nefarious explanations. Uh, Jimmy Carter's administration, engineers, um, an attempted rescue operation in April of 1980. It fails disastrously. Um, they send these helicopters and as something new with the sand and basically you get eight of these soldiers that are on these helicopters that were going to go in and rescue the hostages, um, die.
Speaker 0 41:52 Um, the Iran hostage crisis definitely doesn't help Carter in the election that happens in 1980, most people would say it pretty much is what loses him the election. Uh, he seen as weak. Um, he seen as letting this, this kind of little country that a lot of Americans didn't even know where it was. Walk all over the United States, hold these Americans hostage. Um, Ronald Reagan gets elected in November of 1980, um, and right after he has, you know, he sworn in as president and disagreements reached in the, the hostages or, um, her fried. Uh, now I don't want to get too much in the conspiracy version of this, but there have been rumblings of, does Reagan's team postpone the release of the hostages till after
Speaker 3 42:54 the election? I don't want to get into conspiracy there either, but I mean, I think it's kind of clear cut what's happening. I think Iran is afraid of Reagan. They don't know him. They don't know what he's gonna do. He's talking pretty tough talk. They don't actually want to go to war over this. And so they released the hostages, it seems, you know, January, 1981 like that's not coincidentally like, okay, we must have that Carter guy a bunch. But, and you know what the other thing too is like, maybe this is a moment for like, okay, now we have a blank slate. There's a new president, there's, right. Obviously that doesn't go well, but diplomatically speaking, it does make a lot of sense that they were like, okay, we won't mess with, with Reagan. We're afraid of him. We don't know what he's going to do. And it's funny, like Reagan was kind of like the nutty, like super hawkish politician. Right. And like now he just looks like a puppy dog compared to like the rhetoric we hear now. Right. But I mean, I think that they were unsure of what he may do. And so they're just like, eh, let's not, let's not risk it.
Speaker 0 43:58 Right. Well. So Carter Savage, diplomatic relations, April 7th, 1980. Um, I want kind of listeners understand the students who overtook the embassy were not directly agents of the government of Iran. Right? But the view is the Iranian government's letting this happen. Uh, that's why there's kind of that gap from November when the hostage crisis starts till April when diplomatic relations are severed. Um, once that happens though, um, billions of dollars in Iranian assets in the United States are frozen. Um, these have basically been frozen ever since. Um, this is huge. I mean, think how closely connected the countries had been since 53 and now all this stuff's being frozen. Um, Carter comes, uh, Carter leaves, Reagan comes in, um, and Reagan's administration starts to play this very interesting game in the middle East because on one side they're supporting a raw Iraq. Um, there's this Iraq, Iran, Iran, Iraq war that starts, um, at the same time, turns out they're supplying, trying to sell weapons to Iran by the scandal, right? So the, so the Iran, Iraq war, the United States sides with Iraq.
Speaker 3 45:27 This isn't like a poultry situation. The Iran, Iraq war is like these bloody, it's conflict in the middle East up to this date, one and a half million people die. The United States <inaudible> wrong biological weapons. The United States backs Iraq back Saddam Hussein and they do this simply to piss off Iran because the more conflict that they have in the middle East, the more power that they can wield and the more they pit people against one another, the more power and more control they can wield. And this becomes the,
Speaker 0 45:59 Hmm.
Speaker 3 46:01 Emo from like 1980 on like our middle East policy is so mired in this. We've got to keep everyone mad at each other kind of thing and we'll back this person today and then we'll be trying to fight them tomorrow because like, and it all kind of starts around the late seventies and early eighties like our complete quagmire that we call like middle East policy and diplomacy and all that. It's so much mired in this, this moment of like you can't turn back now. I mean backing Iraq was just, I dunno, it's so frustrating to look back on it now. And it seems like it was so recently, but really like this was a long time ago. Now at this point, we're talking over 30 years ago. We've been in this impossible situation for like longer than I've been alive.
Speaker 0 46:53 <inaudible> well, I mean this is a thing. So when the United States gets involved in the Iran, Iraq war starts kind of supplying stuff to Iraq, prior to that, Iraq had been on a us state, sponsors of terrorism list. They were country we didn't deal with. And we take them off that list and we kind of support this guy, Saddam Hussein, um, in this war. Um, so we do that. Um, and we also have other things that happen even before the Iran Contra affair. Uh, 1983 we get this, a famous Beirut barracks bombing. Um, a guy drives a truck into the barracks. Uh, U S Marines in Lebanon blows it up and 241 <inaudible> soldiers die. Um, and this is blamed on Hezbollah and Hezbollah is an organization. This Islamic organization is closely tied to Iran. Uh, so the United States says that is, you know, this is Iran in the United States, kind of engaging in this proxy war.
Speaker 5 47:58 Mmm.
Speaker 0 47:59 And, you know, to the point where a us district court judge declares Iran responsible for that attack, um, and that victims families could Sue Iran that, that they had, you know, the ability to do this. Uh, additionally, there's another, there's a Khobar towers bombing that happens later in the nineties. Similarly, Iran is found guilty of, uh, you know, an American court says that they're responsible for it. Um, but, you know, then we get to the Iran Contra affair, which is so weird because, you know, there's, there's ratcheting up of rhetoric and blaming each other for all these things. Then the Iran Contra affair, which I think is really about Nicaragua and Iran just happens to be a convenient third party. I mean, what do you, what's your take?
Speaker 0 48:52 I think that's a fair conclusion. What, you know, go ahead. Well. So Congress says, so there's this. So, so Dale Ortega and the communist government takes over and Nicaragua Congress directly prohibits the president of the United States from interfering in that and supporting the Contras, which are rebels seeking over through the communist government in Nicaragua. They says, you cannot send soldiers there. You can't send advisers there. You can't send money there. You can't do anything there. Um, we don't have diplomatic relations with Iran. Um, so somebody cooks up this great idea, why don't we sell weapons illegally to Iran and then take that money and transfer to the Contras.
Speaker 5 49:43 Mmm.
Speaker 0 49:44 And Oliver North is kind of at the center of this whole thing, right? Well, it's this, so like, I don't know how they didn't think they wouldn't get caught. Yeah. It's really, really shady, isn't it? It's funny. Uh, you know, famously before it's, the whole thing's exposed. Ronald Reagan has a televised statement where he said, this didn't happen. Um, you know, and then there's this broader thing of, well, if we weren't using it for money to get the contrast to help the conscious, I mean, were you doing this for hostages? Were you like trading weapons for hostages? Um, and it just, it, and that's when the conspiracies about was the Reagan administration involved in delaying their release, the hostages. That's when that conspiracy really starts to gain traction. Right.
Speaker 3 50:37 This is part of a pattern of dishonest behavior,
Speaker 0 50:41 right? I mean there, the Reagan administration seems a little too close in some ways to be a the days of Reagan. Right? Um, so we get kind of some attacks and then 1988, I thinks the next kind of big moment when, um, on Iranian airplane is shot down and this is a commercial plane with civilians on it. Um, the U S S Vinsons shoots it down. 290 civilians die on it. Um, there are 66 children. Uh, yeah.
Speaker 3 51:15 And this it really bad. And when I S that plane was shot down recently, um, at the beginning of this year, there were a lot of echoes of what happened in 1988 when the United States shot down the plane. And United States didn't do it this time. Right. But it was a passenger airliners, commercial jet. Right. Like you said, you have 290 people who die. 66 of them are children. I mean, in the United States it's just like, sorry, sorry. You serious? And they're like, sorry.
Speaker 0 51:46 So well, George Bush payment. So George Bush was running for president. And what does he say? He says, I won't apologize ever. And so, I mean, Bush kind of continues Reagan's policy in a lot of ways. Um, you know, we don't really get any changes. Um, things stay pretty bad.
Speaker 5 52:17 Mmm.
Speaker 0 52:19 And then we get to September 11th something around has nothing to do with, let me, let me repeat that again. Something around has nothing to do with at all. Both. Not even funding. There are Rainey and officials. Um, Muhammad cot Khatami, the president at the time of the September 11 attacks says, we, we feel bad for you. This is awful. This is a terrible tragedy. The radium public is out saying this is bad.
Speaker 5 52:54 Mmm.
Speaker 0 52:55 When this happens, the site, Ali Khamenei, who's the Supreme leader at that point, suspends the death to America chance at Friday prayers.
Speaker 3 53:03 Right. That's true. Yeah.
Speaker 0 53:07 You know, I mean this is, so there's this real moment, there's a moment to turn this real tragedy September 11th into your kind of opportunity to reset the U S Iran relationship and it lasts for not even three months. January, 2002, George Bush w gives his axis of evil speech and he names Iran.
Speaker 3 53:35 Yes, yes. And a lot of that comes from just that, the long history that we've been talking about. Right. I mean, there's a lot of, at this point now a kind of set attitudes toward Iran. Uh, there's a lot of distaste for, right. The relationships and like he takes and, and he just like plays on our sadness and anger and confusion over nine 11 to be like, Hey, let's go back after these guys again. Cause like we've been mad at him for a long time. I dunno. Maybe that's too simplistic, but I does feel that way. Yeah. But also just one that we were like stalking them. It's like we broke up, you know. So, I mean, there's a lot more to this relationship, but I mean, you know,
Speaker 0 54:28 I think one of the reasons we wanted to do this is for listeners to understand this is a long complicated history. Um,
Speaker 3 54:36 and we couldn't possibly cover it in one episode or one hour. There can be a whole podcast dedicated to this
Speaker 0 54:43 for sure. All my notes, my notes for bushes, second term go on for five pages is this, and the whole thing is, is by 2003, we really do start to get this strong narrative of people saying Iran has something to do with the September 11th attacks.
Speaker 3 54:59 Well, and there's a lot of rhetoric about the uranium enrichment, um, starts imposing tougher sanctions. Um, but then Iran complies because their economy suffering so badly from it. Um, but all the sanctions start rolling in for Iran around like 2003, 2006, 2010. Now again, there's a lot of sanctions. Um, stop enriching uranium, stop exporting weapons. There's banking restrictions, there's trade and travel restrictions on, um, citizens. I mean, it just, the beating that they've taken again and again and again. Post September 11th, it's, it's like just one thing after another. And, um, we didn't even really get in to talking about religion, but that's a whole other aspect of it. But one thing, I mean, I don't know if you're okay with talking a little bit about Iran's economy right now though, but I mean, it is suffering a lot. As a result of these sanctions. The unemployment rate is close to 30%. People with a university graduate degree, um, or university graduates, the unemployment rate for them is at 40%. So what happens when you have a young population? University graduates are just a young population who's not in a workforce.
Speaker 8 56:27 <inaudible>
Speaker 3 56:27 that's not good inflation rates at the low end, they say they're at 40%. A Harvard political scientist says that their inflation rate is upwards of 250%. So it's according to who you ask. Um, the cost of basic shoppings, um, the inflation is upwards of 40%. One us dollar is 42,000 reals. Um, $10 billion in oil revenue had been lost in the last year. So their economy is suffering dramatically. And the major players in this, of course, the United States, UK, Israel, Saudi Arabia. Um, and, but then on the other side of that spectrum, you have players, Russia, Venezuela, Lebanon, right? Lebanon has the common enemy of Israel, but it just, well, all of this relationship, so like we were able to cover quite a bit, but like how that's impacting this country right now is their economy is suffering dramatically. Plus they have a really young population who is unemployed and that just spells disaster, I think. And I don't, I don't think that we're going to be, I don't know, like two weeks ago it seemed very world war three S right. But those, those two factors or kind of alarming, I think too, to have such a high number of unemployment, um, because that means that they're just suffering. People are suffering there.
Speaker 0 58:01 Well, I mean that's the thing is that in the wake of the airliner being shot down, I mean, so the, the U S drone strike on solo Maney kind of solidified a Radian opinion against the United States, or at least quieted anti government voices in Iran. Um, temporarily, but this airline Downing seems to have kind of brought back protest and things. Um, you know, it's a D it's not a stable country at this point. Um, you can't have an economy like that and be stable. Um, you also can't have a country like the United States constantly interfering with your internal affairs and be a stable country. Um, I mean, this is, you know, so Manny's assassination was not the first time the United States is, has interfered deeply in Iranian affairs. Um, or even kind of taking the ultimate solution to kind of getting rid of enemies. Um, Iran is not kind of pure in this either, right? I mean, remember those hospices 52 hostages. It's a violation of kind of international agreements. You don't
Speaker 3 59:22 diplomats hostage. Well, and that's why this relationship is so complicated in my talking about it. So complicated. It's not that it's just one side is right and one side is wrong. And we have spent a lot of time saying the United States, this United States at that, but it's not like there's just been like complete innocence on the other side. A lot of people who live in Iran have suffered under repressive regime. Women in particular have lived under this repressive regime. There are a lot of people who were exiled and have never been allowed to go back to Iran post revolution. Their families or their families have been separated. It's not, it's not simple. It's not cut and dry. It's not easy to say this, this side's writer, this side's wrong. It's so complex. And to unpack all of that, I mean it's like dissertations on dissertations, on dissertations and I think that anybody going into the field of U S history, I think that this would be a great topic, right?
Speaker 3 00:25 I mean just like relations because I like to think of like, well 1980 wasn't that long ago. I mean I know we joke that, you know, post Vietnam is kind of journalism, but that's just a bias. I mean now we are talking about 40 you know, 40 years ago, right as 1980 so it's like there is plenty to study here and I would love to hear more from people who do study this and who are well versed in it. And it's been really fun for me to, to dive into it a little bit, and I hope that people got a little bit from this, but there is a lot to unpack here and it's really, it's really a need of more study. I think
Speaker 0 01:09 this was great. I thought this, I thought that's what Mao, definitely. Um, definitely if this is something you study and you're Lister and you know, we got something really wrong, please let us know. Um, we'll make that correction. Um, also if there's something you liked, um, let us know. If you want us to do more, uh, episodes like this, um, let us know. We're still working on that kind of secret organizations history of fraternities and sororities episode. Uh, next week, um, we're gonna have, uh, a great episode. It's about prohibition in the 1920s. Um, that should be fun. It's kind of a continuation of our episode from last year about how drunk American colonist were. Um, it should be a fun episode. Uh, please join us next time. Uh, I'm Jeff Hilary until next week.
