Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00 February 14th, not just about Valentines. It's also the anniversary of one of the bloodiest gang confrontations in us history. 1929 Saint Valentine's day massacre occurred in Chicago. This was perhaps the culmination of prohibition and competition to serve elicit alcohol to thirsty Chicagoans join us today on an incomplete history. So a second attempt at recording this episode, huh?
Speaker 3 00:46 Yeah, I think we got like 10 minutes into the last time. Well, it's, you know, it was the mob they had Ben, they put a hit out on the internet and now I'm sitting alone in an office, so in a secure location,
Speaker 0 01:03 in a secure location. Um, so, uh, this is, it was meant to be a Valentine's day episode, but it's also a good followup to our prohibition episode. Right?
Speaker 3 01:12 Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Cause I don't think that we got to cover some of the stuff that we'll definitely cover this week. Um, so it is kind of an addendum to last week, but then also it's in the mood for February. It doesn't have to be the 14th. So before we kind of drop into this, uh, how's the weather out in Mississippi? Hillary. Well, it's national news. Jeffrey, I know. Do you live here? The Pearl river? Um, so that's down in Jackson, that's about two and a half hours from where I live. But the, a lot of the rivers, a lot of the places around here that, you know, uh, get full of water. Like there's like reservoirs and rivers and all that kind of stuff. Like they're really, really high right now. So just today I was driving through this neighborhood. So there's, there's this neighborhood that has a really, really nice houses and there's one house in the neighborhood that's like $200,000 cheaper than all the other houses.
Speaker 3 02:08 And I'm just like, what's going on here? So really nice house. Well it turns out that like it floods off so it's actually solved, mystery solved. So I drove, actually drove by that neighborhood today, just like I was just happened to be in the area and I went and looked and like, Oh, it's like really, really close. And I feel so bad for the people who live there. Like, I don't think it's funny, but it is, you can see like, Oh yeah, the water is going to come in at any time now. And um, I know that they're working on China Lake mitigate that, but you know, that we've had so much rain the past two months and in this month it seems like it's rained every single day. So the ground is just really wet and we can't really take much more, but it's gonna rain tomorrow, so fun times. That's what's going on. Yeah. And then nothing's happened. It's just
Speaker 0 03:00 standard San Diego weather seventies during the day, fifties, fifties high forties and night. Can I still light jacket? Yeah. Well, no for us please. It's like parka, like skinny suit boots.
Speaker 4 03:16 Mmm.
Speaker 0 03:18 You know, blizzard preparations. So, uh, I mean, let's start off with kind of a quick narrative of this event and, uh, are we calling it an event? Well, I mean, we're start by looking at the event, right? And then we kind of spiral out from that event in both directions. And I think it's an interesting window for people into what historians do, right? It's like you see something, you're kind of curious about it and it leads you to many other things and you can do a lot with it. Um,
Speaker 3 03:50 yeah, when I was researching for this episode, so again, I have to say this isn't, you know, this isn't our specialty necessarily, but it is interesting and it does, it spirals both ways because I was like, well, the Saint Valentine's day massacre obviously happens on Valentine's day. It's um, February 14th, 19, 29, but when I was doing the research for is like, Oh wow, this like kind of goes back further and then it goes forward further and all that. So we can do those both things. But a little synopsis of the massacre. You ready? Yes, I am. Okay. February 14th, 1929, seven members of Chicago's North side gang, so that's the Irish Americans, which also there are Polish Americans in Chicago's North side gang are murdered by unknown individuals. Uh, there are
Speaker 3 04:50 thoughts that it is the Italian Americans, uh, ran by Johnny Torrio and Al Capone who were the arch nemesis of the North side gang. So their organization, there's the North side gang that has the Irish Americans and the Polish Americans. And then you have the Italian Americans that are known as the Chicago outfit. So before the massacre happens, there's a lot of unrest between the two. We can go into that later. But what happens on this day is that there are seven people of the Chicago Northside gang who are murdered in a parking garage. And the folks who murdered them show up, two of them are dressed as police officers. They usher the seven Northside gang members into this garage, line them up against a wall and mow them down with, um, subatomic machine guns, right? That's what they're called. Sub machine. So I'm sorry. So bad with guns. I don't know about guns there, Tommy guns that I know. Sorry. No, no, I think it's okay there. Tommy guns that I do know. But there are Thompson machine, Thompson Wright, Thompson, automatic guns, and the called Tommy guns, right?
Speaker 3 06:21 So these four unidentified men, again, two of them dress the Chicago police department, they enter this garage in the North side. Um, they order the gang members against the wall. They, they pull out the machine guns, they mow them down. There's one survivor for a couple of hours. And interestingly enough, his name is Frank. Tight lips goes in Berg. Uh, he died in the hospital about two hours later and he never named who, who shot at them. And so he kind of, you know, he went to the grave not ratting on the people who killed him and his friends. Um, and the main target of the attack was the leader of Chicago's North side gang bugs Moran and he escaped. He wasn't there. Um, so he leaves unharmed and it ends up being like seven of his henchmen who were shot in this massacre. And this leads to a five-year gang war between Capone and Moran.
Speaker 3 07:21 But it also leads to a federal crackdown on gang activity because this happens in broad daylight. This is like in the, in the daytime, they were like marching people out in a public space, mowing them down. It's brazen, it's a brazen attack. And so it brings a lot of attention to gang activity that's going on but had been going on for several years. And this is all of course related to what we talked about last week with prohibition and the illegal, um, running and selling and, um, produce producing of alcohol. So the gain war that ensues leads Al Capone to being labeled as public enemy number one. Um, and so there's the federal crackdown on gang activity, but it also kind of solidifies that like Capone is the guy in charge here now. I mean, he's, this becomes this very public figure, even though he was well known prior, he's like even more so now. Um, but this massacre happens in 1929 so we know that prohibitions are going on for a long time. At that point, it's well, well into prohibition. I mean, one of the reasons they're willing to fight is this illegal trade and alcohol is very lucrative. Right?
Speaker 3 08:43 Oh my gosh, it's so lucrative. Yeah. Al Capone was making, they said upwards of $60 million per year. $60 million from bootlegging
Speaker 0 08:56 dollar in 1920 $9. Right. Which would be much, much,
Speaker 3 09:06 it would be like, I don't even know. I wouldn't know what the a billion, yeah, I was thinking some of our close out. Like what would you even do with that amount of money?
Speaker 0 09:15 Well, I mean he obviously, I mean, so I mean there's a lot to chew on there, right? And I want to kind of focus on some weird stuff that just cracks me up and then we can kind of get to maybe some of the bigger issues that you've already kind of hinted at. Right? So, so you said it's seven members of the gang. That's true, but not quite true. Correct? Not yet. Not quite. I mean, Ryan Hart Schwimmer cracks me up. So he's an optician who decides to like gamble with gangsters while he lost that bet. Yeah. It didn't go well. But if you're running around with gangsters, right? Aren't, don't, aren't you one? Well, he's like a thrill seeker, right? I mean he's this guy who feels bored with life and he's kind of a thrill seeker and you know, so you've got him and then you've got the mechanic. I feel bad for the mechanic, but I guess if you're a mechanic for gangsters, you know, um,
Speaker 3 10:19 and let's, so that's really interesting that you bring it up that like there are these people who were like, well, not really members of the gang, but like, that's what, you know, I always was raised as like, you're hanging out with gang members, you're a gang member, so don't do that. You know? I mean, not that I was, but that was always something my parents would tell me is like, you don't hang out with these people, you're going to get in trouble with these people.
Speaker 0 10:40 No. Right? So, so Moran is the big bugs. Moran is the target, right? And supposedly Moran is running late to the meeting and we'll talk about what the meeting was. The meeting was the deal to get booze, right? It was this kind of shipment of high quality whiskey and it was an all set up. Brian. I mean, this is pieced together after the fact. Capone ever admits to this. A lot of other people kind of really resist saying much about this. But what's interesting is this idea that, um, it's to make a deal for booze and they've made it a large enough amount that Moran himself is going to be there, but he's running late to the meeting and when he gets there, he already sees two of Capone's men dressed as policemen going in. He assumes it's a police raid. So he leaves and a lot of people in the neighborhood are around the garage. Um, you know, on North Clark street assumed this was the case, right. That, that the police had come to do this. And then the interesting thing is there's a period there where people assume the police had just massacred these gang members.
Speaker 4 12:03 <inaudible>
Speaker 3 12:04 yeah. Well it kind of looked like they had, because of the, the disguises and also because they knew that there was such a public, there was such public warfare going on between these gang members that it wouldn't have been utterly surprising for there to have been like a police shootout at this point. Right.
Speaker 0 12:23 Yeah. I, I, you know, I think it's, it's funny cause there are so many people who kind of hear it or see the beginning of it or the aftermath of it and they all just assume it's part of the same, that it's this continuation of things going on. Um, but it's not, and they, it's interesting because the FBI immediately kind of focuses on, uh, Al Capone, right?
Speaker 3 12:52 Well, yeah, because there had been such, again, like a public feud between these two factions for years. And so they did zero in because it made sense, like you said, they pieced together that there was a major meeting going on that bugs Moran was supposed to be there. And it just made sense that it had been planned out by Capone's, um, Chicago outfit because there had been such problems between these two organizations for so many years that, I mean, who else would it have been? And what's funny is like, I think everyone knew it, but nobody was ever prosecuted.
Speaker 0 13:31 Well, yeah. And I think it's interesting that, um, so what Capone had been doing was losing a lot of his shipments, his illegal shipments to Moran's gang. I mean this wasn't, it wasn't just that they were fighting each other for control of alcohol and stuff in Chicago. This filtered out across the whole great Lake region for them. And you know, Moran was kind of, it was an open secret that his gang was preying on Capone's shipments further North and then across the Lake, Michigan. Um, in places like Detroit. Right. I mean it's, and this is all going on and, and Capone does this and it Capone's an interesting character that I think we need to talk about, but I, I want to get to kind of what makes this case so particular and special. Um, and I think there are a few things that do that. The first I think is ballistics.
Speaker 3 14:36 Yeah. The firepower. I mean,
Speaker 0 14:39 well, I mean, not only that, these two sub machine guns are used for this and they use a shotgun as well, and I think they use a 45, but that the FBI uses ballistics to eventually solve the case, um, in 1935 ish. Right. Um,
Speaker 3 15:01 well you're saying so like there's advances in technology.
Speaker 0 15:07 Yeah. I mean this is the first time that ballistics is used and they actually recover these two guns. There's this thing that happens in Michigan. Um, I mean the war between Capone and Moran's gang goes on for some time, uh, and they find these two guns and they test them and they determined that the guns had actually been used in the massacre way back in 1929 and it's a real breakthrough for the FBI. Right. I mean, it's one way gangsters had avoided being prosecuted was they always kind of had one degree of separation
Speaker 3 15:43 or two degrees of separation from anything that went on. Right. Right. And then in this particular case, Capone wasn't even there. He wasn't even in Chicago. He was in Florida. Moved himself. Yeah. Oh yeah. He was way far away. He was in Palm Island and he just could say, Hey, I was down in Florida. I don't know where you're talking about.
Speaker 0 16:01 Yes, he was in, he was like in the Dade County Sheriff's officer, something
Speaker 3 16:06 if you'd like a range. Yeah, no, he knew exactly. Yeah. Cause I think here
Speaker 0 16:10 for him to get questioned by police so that he'd have an a like a,
Speaker 3 16:15 an air tight alibi. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So yeah.
Speaker 0 16:20 You know, it's, so we get the Capone versus Moran gangs and the, you know, they had come up with this plan. Capone's gang had come up with this plan, uh, to destroy the Moran gang entirely. I mean, this wasn't meant to just send a signal. This was meant to actually just annihilate a Moran's gang. And Casa Capone, the kind of the eventual explanation comes out that Capone agrees to fund this plot, uh, to kill Moran and anybody around him. And he uses this guy Jack machine gun McGurn. Uh, and Mercer McGurn is going to be the one, uh, to kind of carry it out. Interestingly enough, McGurn himself had been a target of Moran's gang. Right. Moran's gang had tried to kill McGurn. Um, so McGurn found out where Moran's gang kind of hung out, which was at 2122 North Clark street. Um, he got gunman from outside Chicago so that they wouldn't be recognized.
Speaker 0 17:28 Um, he also rented an apartment near the garage, set lookouts there. Um, got a police car, got police uniforms, and then they concocted the whole story of the whiskey. So it's the whiskey. Uh, they said they had hijacked, um, a shipment of whiskey, which Moran had already shown a proclivity to kind of buy this stuff that was hijacked from Capone and it was old log cabin whiskey, which meant it was, you know, premium whiskey, but a really good price, about $57 a case. So the agreement was they'd bring this liquor there, they'd make the deal and the exchange would go down and stuff. I mean, it's, it's kind of a brilliant plan <inaudible> part. Right.
Speaker 5 18:14 Okay.
Speaker 3 18:14 Yeah, it was well orchestrated and it had been, I think that they had been orchestrating something along these lines. I mean, this level of trying to destroy it completely for a long time. And they thought that they had succeeded because I think they said that when the people marched out into the garage, they thought that bugs Moran was among those individuals because there was somebody who was like similar height, weight dress or whatever to him. And they didn't realize until after it was all finished. And Moran made a public statement that he was actually still alive and like, Oh shoot. But it was, I mean, had he been there then, yeah, it would have been perfectly orchestrated. But they planned it for a long time. I mean, down to, yeah, the, the story about the, the alcohol and then, you know, Capone being in Florida and people coming from outside. I mean, it was a well-orchestrated attack and it was successful. Yeah. So in, in, in accomplishing what they wanted to accomplish, which was becoming the prominent gang doesn't last very long for Capone, but it's his down.
Speaker 0 19:23 Well, that's the thing is like this, this is the thing that the public so outraged, the FBI kind of doubles down on its efforts. So Capone's in Miami, uh, it was the Dade County solicitor who was questioning him. Um, machine gun McGurn, uh, was with his girlfriend, his blonde girlfriend, the 13th and the 14th in a hotel room. Uh, it was called the blonde alibi. Uh, Burke was one of the gunman. He was actually arrested a couple of years later on a non unrelated charge and sends to prison. But the interesting thing is, so Burke doesn't go to jail over this. He goes to jail over something else. Um, McGurn doesn't go over to go to jail over this. Al Capone doesn't either. Although everybody knows Al Capone and McGurn did this. Like everybody.
Speaker 3 20:20 Yeah, I mean, but still to this day we can't say in phatic Lee that they did really well. Nobody's ever been in trouble for it.
Speaker 0 20:28 Right. Well, I mean, so I have a question. So why, and this is where historians, this is, these are interesting questions, but like, we know where it's supposed to ask them. Why does in Gutenberg, Frank Gutenberg, why doesn't he speak?
Speaker 3 20:44 Because they're not rats. They don't want to talk to the put it's a rival. It doesn't matter. They don't. That's so that's what's interesting about the mafia, and maybe we can go into talking about this a little bit, cause I think it gets the heart of the question, the mafia, these mafia gang whatevers, they're created by people who are immigrants. They don't trust the police, they don't trust any sort of government law enforcement entity to protect them in their communities. So they create these outfits and I mean the States all the way back into the 19th century and <inaudible>, it doesn't matter if it's a rival or not. Nobody wants to talk to the police. And that's to this day, I mean, you know, you look at gang Wars that go on all over the country and of course that's, it's come looks completely different now, but it's a similar sentiment. You're not going to have them tell on each other because <inaudible> the enemy of my enemy is my friend or something. Right. What does that like? They don't, I mean they have a common enemy, I guess on my side I'm saying doesn't work. They have a common enemy and that's the police. And so they're not going to talk to the police. Never. Why would they? Hmm.
Speaker 0 21:59 So
Speaker 4 22:00 <inaudible>
Speaker 0 22:01 let's talk about the racial aspect of this, right? Kind of the ethnic inflection to this conflict and cause I think it cast a long shadow across how people in the United States view crime even today.
Speaker 3 22:19 Yeah. Well I think at the time, you know, I guess we can talk a little bit about the construction of whiteness, but Italians weren't considered white at that time.
Speaker 0 22:31 But even then, even the Irish, I mean it's interesting. One gangs, Irish, predominantly Irish and some Polish people and the other gang is predominantly Italian and for a lot of kind of middle class white Protestant Americans, they look at this and they're like, of course, right? They've, they've decided in their minds, what can you expect of people that aren't like that? They're immigrant community, right? Yeah. I mean, and it's, you know, it's an interesting kind of, it's this vicious cycle. It's like, well, are they, are there some of the people involved in kind of this gang, these criminal organizations, these gangs? Are they in that? Because there are opportunities outside of them for them. Um, I mean there's a lot of white Protestant guys run in booze as well and Oh yeah. And they are like going to jail like this.
Speaker 3 23:31 Well, but I think that they're, they're more consumers of it than they are boot Lakers. Is that fair? And see and that's what it is right now. I mean if you think about the current state of affairs in the United States with a gangs and drugs and all of that, like white middle class people are consumers of drugs but they're not traffickers of drugs. Right, Jen? So Jen, well yeah, generally I mean, and I think that's by design of course it is. Yeah. They want to, drug consumption in this country is like completely out of control and we don't talk about that. We just talk about like, Oh well who do the people trafficking it? And it's like, well who are the people consuming it? It's a supply and demand situation here.
Speaker 0 24:18 Well, and the way, I mean we talked about in our prohibition, I've said the whole problem with one of the issues with the prohibition laws is it doesn't ban the consumption.
Speaker 3 24:31 Yeah. That's the most convenient loophole. I think that that's kind of like the funniest part of all of that. It's like, it doesn't say anything about drinking it just as stuff about producing anything about drinking it. I love that. I think that that's very American. I don't know how you got it, but you can go ahead and drink it now that you have it.
Speaker 0 24:52 It's so, I mean it really does. I mean it's a system that's designed to punish those who are providing the vice, her feeding device.
Speaker 4 25:05 <inaudible>
Speaker 3 25:06 I w yeah. I mean I think that there's a similarity to what's happening here. I mean, right now I guess not here, but right now, I mean it's not illegal to take prescription drugs if you're prescribed it,
Speaker 0 25:22 but come on. Well, I mean it's, yeah, I mean you've got the lawsuits against big pharma, right?
Speaker 4 25:31 Mmm.
Speaker 0 25:34 And they do go after kind of people who deal in like Oxy code on and stuff. But the individual person who's just taking them, I dunno, I think it is illegal for you to try to buy it, which is a big departure from alcohol in the 20s. Right, where it's not illegal for you to go out and try to buy it.
Speaker 3 25:55 No, it is because you're not allowed to purchase it because it's not allowed to be sold. Say that
Speaker 0 26:00 but sold doesn't say purchased
Speaker 4 26:04 <inaudible>
Speaker 3 26:04 they go hand in hand. No,
Speaker 0 26:06 I don't know. I think we need to investigate that a little bit. I'm, I mean it's an interesting, it's an interesting question, right? Is the prohibition on sales mean you can't attempt to buy it, uh, to the best of mileage. I don't think they go after people trying to buy it. Um, I mean they do round up people and take them in the Patty wagon down to the,
Speaker 3 26:29 well, that's what the whole thing is. They're doing these raids, right, to catch people buying it, not necessarily consuming it. Although that goes hand in hand too. It's only people buy drinks and toss them out. But like what if I buy a cup of coffee and they me a whiskey for
Speaker 0 26:44 free?
Speaker 3 26:45 Well that's what they used to do. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wonder if that's all mixed drinks became so popular. I don't know.
Speaker 0 26:55 I think it's why bars served like little crappy food. It's like, it's like buy some crappy little pigs in a blanket and then you can drink all the booze you want for 30 minutes or something. Those pigs in a blanket become like the most delicious thing you've ever had. Well, yeah, I I suppose so. The FBI, uh, and we had talked about this in our, in our prohibition episode. I mean the FBI for the first time really pays attention. Al Capone after the Saint Valentine's day massacre.
Speaker 3 27:29 Yeah. Again, it's gruesome what happens, right? I can't stress this enough, but it's like the fact that these gang Wars are spilling over into like public garages in broad daylight on a holiday, a holiday of love coming. Come on. People are just like, Hey, let's get a handle on this. Huh?
Speaker 0 27:51 Well, I mean, Chicago already had a reputation though at that point.
Speaker 6 27:57 No.
Speaker 3 27:59 Yeah, for sure. How to reputation
Speaker 0 28:02 and you know, I think it's, you know, all the people who had been supportive of social reform via prohibition kind of looked at this and said, the government needs to step in and fix this. This is bad.
Speaker 3 28:14 Yeah. It becomes kind of like the poster child for all that's going wrong during the air. Right? I mean, it's like an escape goat too. It's like wool, Chicago, Chicago, all these gangs, these immigrants, they're the problem. You know, we, everything would be going okay if it, if you know, they got a handle on this and so then there's an immense pressure put on the federal government, which is, we talked about in the last episode, there isn't really an apparatus to enforce prohibition. And so when you start seeing this violence spill out onto the streets, there's an immense pressure put on the federal government to get a handle on this violence spilling out into the community. And again, they just don't have the resources devoted, but then they start to do it because of public pressure.
Speaker 0 29:02 Do you, so we talked in prohibition, the prohibition episode about that this, and I kind of wanted to ask, I mean, do you think anti Catholicism feeds into this?
Speaker 3 29:12 For sure. We need to do a whole episode on this. I was just, I was talking to a friend who listens and he thinks that we need to focus a lot on anti Catholicism in the United States. And I think that it's true. But yeah, I would say most certainly it plays into this <inaudible>
Speaker 0 29:31 cause we know it plays into the initial creation of the rule, the law.
Speaker 6 29:35 Mmm.
Speaker 0 29:36 But I, but I just wonder how kind of people kind of shake their heads and say, Oh, it's these Catholic emigrants who are doing this. They're kind of ruining this. They're corrupting good law abiding American citizens who would not be
Speaker 3 29:51 purchasing this devil juice. This is this devil juice that they drink at their, at their ceremonies.
Speaker 0 30:00 Yeah. If it wasn't for these kind of people selling.
Speaker 3 30:03 Really. Yeah. No, it's true. I think that that's most certainly a part of it, because we've talked about this so many times, but the Puritan roots in this country, and when we talked about prohibition, I mean, they go hand in hand if like this abolition abolition of alcohol, like trying to just rid society of vice rid society of prostitution, alcohol, all these different things, right? And it's like, Oh, you have these organizations who are comprised of immigrants who are Catholic, who are running all of the bad stuff, all the stuff that goes against this like Puritan ideal. I mean, it's like, it's just, it like goes against everything that these really conservative socially conservative people had been, had come to this country for in the first place. Really.
Speaker 0 31:02 So let's, let's kind of talk a little bit about what happens to some of the main characters after this, and then we can talk about like the legacy of this and, and how it changes. You know, the FBI, treasury department, federal government, even the United States, the public's engagement with kind of the idea of crime and stuff. Um, so Al Capone, he does end up going to jail, right? I mean, he, so he's dubbed, everybody knows he's done it. Um, there is supposedly a dinner where he kind of clubs to death, several of his men, although there's strong evidence that that's anecdotal at best. Um, although it fell, it's found its way into kind of modern retellings of this story. But, uh, newspapers call him public enemy number one, the FBI really doubles down. Um, and
Speaker 6 32:00 uh huh.
Speaker 0 32:03 He was charged in 29 of, of, um, of uh, carrying a concealed weapon, goes to jail for nine months in her soil based on good behavior. Um, you know, February 30 for our February 31, he's charged again, has to serve six months in the cook County jail. So you can see there after him about everything, right? I mean, it's, it's versus concealed gun. And then it's this contempt charge in a court hearing. Um, all this, while a special agent, uh, Frank Wilson and this unit within the internal revenue service are putting together a case. And by June of 31, he's indicted for evasion, federal tax evasion, income tax evasion. And this is what's hilarious, right? How they get him.
Speaker 3 32:56 That's always the big joke, right? Like, Oh, what did Al Capone go to jail for? Tax evasion? Well, it's tax evasion on the money he made selling alcohol, bootleg liquor. He made so much money selling that bootleg liquor. I want to go back really quickly though. Two years, nine month jail sentence. So he's arrested in 1929 for the con for concealing weapons and he's arrested in Philadelphia. He serves nine months in the Eastern state penitentiary. And for my research, that's my spot. That's my prison. Not really. Um, I actually started a lot of my dissertation research on Eastern state penitentiary, but then it shifted to Virginia. But I spent a lot of time in the archive there. And if you, you can go tour, it's still today, it's still standing. It's a museum and an archive and you can see his cell. And it's really neat because the man was treated like a celebrity because he was, his cell had like a beautiful rug in the middle of it.
Speaker 3 34:01 He had a really nice writing desk. He had a radio. I mean he just had like, it was like a, it's like a luxury cell and they, and they set that all up for him. I mean, again, the guy's making $60 million a year. Like he can afford to like pay off guards and stuff like that. But the gardens themselves, it's clear that they're sort of struck by his celebrity. And so he spends nine months there. He spends nine months listening to records and corresponding with friends and you know, paying off the guards. He gets to wander around more than everybody else. Like he gets all these, the oldest special treatment basically in Eastern state penitentiary and you can go and still see that today. I would recommend it. The tour's really great. It helps keep the museum, you know, in business and all of that. Um, but it kind of goes to show like he was well known. He, he was considered a celebrity of sorts. And I think, I think we, nowadays, we really romanticize him, but even at the time, you know, he was being treated differently than all the other prisoners.
Speaker 0 35:13 Well, I, so I think that's a great point, right, is this idea that, um, and it's going to get worse, right? In the depression, where we're going to see is there's this valorization of criminals that takes place and, um, they go back kind of in American history and start valorizing people like Jesse James. But then there are all these people, John, there are these people that kind of get valorized in the public imagination. Even Al Capone to some sense, right? He's a celebrity when he goes to jail, um, the first two times he gets sentenced to 11 years in prison for federal tax evasion. Uh, first he serves in Atlanta and then he's moved to Alcatraz. And I mean, he gets released in 1939 which is far short of his sentence. Um, but cause he's sick and he eventually dies in Florida in 1947. Uh, what he dies of is a little up for debate. Um, but he's very sick man right now. Is it a sexually well, does he or does an a, um, I don't think it says that on his death certificate.
Speaker 4 36:25 And I mean,
Speaker 0 36:29 I mean sure. Right. But, uh, again, I mean maybe social worries are changing yet again and by 47, right. Maybe this stuff that made people love him through the depression is going away by 47 baby baby. You know how the public response to Al Capone is a good litmus test to shifting moral values?
Speaker 3 36:52 Well, he, I mean he kind of, he died not in obscurity, but like people kind of stopped caring about him. It is this weird period where he's valorized for the first time in the 1930s, like you said, during the depression, then the war comes along and it really changes. Things, changes society. People come back and by the time he dies, I think that they don't really care. And then it's not until several decades later that we start to like valorize him. And we have all this nostalgia about the 1920s gangsters and all that kind of stuff. But when he dies, yeah, I mean there's definitely public sentiment has shifted toward him. Wouldn't you say?
Speaker 0 37:29 Uh, when he dies a PO, uh, public ship sentiments I think shifted behind him. Right?
Speaker 4 37:36 I think <inaudible>
Speaker 0 37:38 I think when he gets synced to jail, public cinnamon's very much forum. I think people really, um,
Speaker 4 37:46 uh,
Speaker 0 37:49 care about him, but once he kind of dies, I think a lot of people ask in 47 when he dies, they're like, wait, what? He just died. I thought he died a long time ago.
Speaker 3 38:00 Well, that's what I'm saying though, is he died in somewhat obscurity. People had kind of forgotten about him. And I would say it's because world war II is happening and they're just like, yeah, that 1920 stuff. Like, we're not doing that anymore.
Speaker 0 38:13 Well, and I also think the war creates an I, it's an interesting thing. These organized crime guys are kind of viewed as heroes on some level in the 30s. And I think after world war II, I mean we have people who actually did things that weren't illegal. Um, that people can can valorize right. Um, we can have that debate another time. Well, I mean we can, they did being legal or if, well we and we will because it is the 75th anniversary of the end of world war II this year. And we'll be having a couple of, I think we're having a couple of episodes about it, right? We're going to talk about a few things. Um, in August we are going to do some stuff on the atomic.
Speaker 6 38:58 Um,
Speaker 0 39:00 definitely to be confused with the subatomic, not to be confused with the subatomic machine guns, which wow. Um, no wonder component rules there for a little while. Did I get that? It's great. But so I think it's good you bring up this idea that the stuff goes away for a while and then eventually comes back. Right? So we get some really shitty movies made. Um, have I cursed before on our podcast? Oops.
Speaker 6 39:28 Um, so
Speaker 0 39:31 this movie's hilariously bad. I suggest everybody check it out. Um, don't say it. Don't say what I think you're going to say. It's on prime video to rent. I don't think it's anywhere free to stream. Gather some of your friends and rent it cause it's so bad. So Roger Corman in 1967 makes this movie called the Saint Valentine's day massacre. Oh, it's so bad. I thought you were going to say the untouchables if we're going to get to the end touch. Um, but let me, I wanted to read Roger Ebert's review part of it cause it's so, so the late Roger Ebert, uh, did a review of this in 1967 he gave it one and a half stars down. Um, and this is, Debbie says it's so funny, but he says the antique cars bring up another disappointment. So evidently they tried to make these antique cars that were realistic. Corpsman allegedly spent hundreds of thousands dollars constructing sets that would resemble Chicago in the 1920s. What they resemble most of all are Chicago in the gangster movies of the 1930s. Right. Which is the thing, it's, I think this is a public perception thing. People today think Chicago in the 1920s looked like 1930 Chicago, a gangster movie set in Chicago, 1920s, they assume it's a 100% accurate reflection. Um, and uh, what was the other when he said,
Speaker 6 41:10 Mmm,
Speaker 0 41:13 they see says that 20th century Fox does it didn't take Corman seriously. Uh, they just kind of wanted something that would be fun and a little bloody. What Corman does, he tries to make a serious movie. So it's like this weird semi-documentary film. And here's the greatest thing. Um, the voiceover is provided by the same guy who does the ghost host in Disneyland's haunted mansion
Speaker 3 41:43 only. You would dig up this obscure fact and somehow somehow bring up Disneyland, a podcast about Al Capone. And I respect that.
Speaker 0 41:57 It was pretty easy to get to it.
Speaker 4 42:00 <inaudible>
Speaker 0 42:01 but I mean, it's so, I mean, you've got this crappy movie that's made, um, so Jason Robarts plays Al Capone. It's so bad, so very, very bad. It's kinda one of those movies too where you, the masker doesn't happen till almost the very end and you spend the entire thing waiting for the masker to happen. Um, it's like, it's like Titanic,
Speaker 3 42:22 what's an acronym for,
Speaker 0 42:26 Oh, it's like all this weird background thing and they're trying to kind of play up the conflict between Moran's gang and Capone's gang. It's just so,
Speaker 3 42:36 Oh, so I did say I was going to go back really quickly. And is this what they're talking about where there was like a lot of attempts on killing one another prior to the massacre itself? Right. So the guy who was in charge of,
Speaker 4 42:54 okay,
Speaker 3 42:55 the Chicago outfit, Johnny Torrio, they tried to assassinate him in 1925. Did they go back that far?
Speaker 0 43:02 Uh, yeah, they do. They, eh, uh, wait, does it go all the way back to <inaudible>?
Speaker 3 43:08 Well, after I, there was an assassination attempt on him in a restaurant in 1925 and after that he moved back to Sisley. Liam was like, I'm done. And hands over the Chicago outfit to Al Capone is like, I'm retiring because they're seriously after me. I mean, the game war goes back and I mean, it's not, it's serious of like trying to take out the head guy and they, they're not successful. The, um, North side gangs aren't successful in that assassination attempt. I think they kill his driver when they do that. But I mean, when you say it was planned out so well, I mean it was, and I'm assuming it was years in the making where there's just trying to find the perfect opportunity to take out the head guy. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, I don't want to watch this horrible movie, but I was wondering if that's maybe what they were hinting at.
Speaker 0 44:01 Right. I think maybe I want to shift to a movie that I think is one of my favorite movies and I try to watch it every Valentine's day. Um,
Speaker 3 44:12 every Valentine's day. Some like what movie? What movie? Oh,
Speaker 0 44:18 1959. Uh, Marilyn Monroe, Tony Curtis, Jack lemon. Um, it's two guys, uh, musicians who witnessed the Saint Valentine's day massacre and have two women and join an all girls jazz group and go to Florida. I had no clue what the plot of that film was. It's great. It's so fantastic. Um, uh, there it is. If you've not seen that movie, you need to pause the podcast and you just need to go watch that movie. Like honestly dismissed. I mean, this is the great Billy Wilder. This is the guy who did double indemnity await. He doesn't do a double indemnity. He does, uh, sunset Boulevard. Um, what else? That movie? Uh, what do you hate? Sunset Boulevard.
Speaker 3 45:14 God, it's awful. So we've had this conversation. What, and maybe we can have a podcast about what a Rube I am. I hate classic movies. I think they're awful. I don't like them. I don't appreciate them. Name one that you think I would like and I'll tell you I don't, I promise.
Speaker 0 45:33 What about that hurts my soul a little.
Speaker 3 45:38 I know. Well, we've talked about this so many times because you've always wanted me to like put classic movies into my classes and sometimes I do like I'll show Tora Tora, Tora when I'm teaching Pearl Harbor. I mean there are things like I will include as being like not primary sources, but kind of right? Like they're like cultural moments and I do understand their importance. I appreciate him for that reason. I will never watch a classic movie for pleasure. I just won't do it. Frank made me watch sunset Boulevard and I was just like, this is insane. Yeah, he likes all that stuff. Frank and I should hang out a lot. Like star Wars and classic movies. Yeah, you guys are both.
Speaker 0 46:17 Um, I just checked, he did direct double indemnity and my brain did not fail me. He just stopped like 17 Sabrina seven year itch with any of those. None of them. The apartment. No. They need us some crappy stuff towards the end of his life. Like the private life of Sherlock Holmes, which is just not good. Kind of sounds like an adult film.
Speaker 3 46:39 Uh, maybe
Speaker 0 46:44 but, but I mean it's honestly the, I mean connecting this movie with the st Valentine's day massacre is a little thin. It is technically in there and kind of gangsters are all in it. But the funny thing is is this is 59 this movies comes out and there's still a little nostalgia about the gangsters. I mean the gangsters are kind of bad, but there's a couple of them are kind of lovable
Speaker 6 47:09 bad. Um,
Speaker 0 47:12 which is an interesting thing. I mean 59 we're coming off kind of the optimism of the fifties.
Speaker 6 47:19 Mmm.
Speaker 0 47:20 You know, the Corman movie is in the late sixties, so it's in a time that's, that's pretty separated from that kind of postwar optimist period. And then we get to the movie you mentioned, right?
Speaker 3 47:34 Well that's in the 80s. But I mean is it fair to say though that there was kind of a love affair between Hollywood and the gangsters because these people had so much money and it was a lot of overt, wasn't there like some overlap with these? Yeah. Like with some of these people who are just starting out and stuff for no, maybe my wrong,
Speaker 0 47:55 maybe. I, I think, I mean it's interesting cause I think what you could do is you could plot kind of moments where we seem a little more willing to kind of look at positive imagery of gangsters. So, um, the untouchables is from 1987. You're not supposed to like the gangsters.
Speaker 4 48:20 Right. Would you agree
Speaker 0 48:23 in, in which, in the antigen, the intangibles still. So like the federal, yeah, you're supposed to like Elliot. Yes. And all of them, you're not supposed to like the gangsters, right? Cause you've got, especially some of them like, um, Frank nitty, some of them are just these vile people, right? I mean you're supposed to be happy when Frank nitty gets thrown off the roof. Right? Um, and I think that contrast with another movie that is thinly veiled reference to Al Capone, which is 1983 Scarface, which is a re-imagining, um,
Speaker 0 49:05 of Al Capone story. Surprisingly enough directed by the same guy who does the untouchables. It's an earlier film. So Scarface is 1983 on touchables at AEs is 87. Both of them are based on Al Capone a little bit. One is one doesn't pretend it's not, but Scarface definitely does. Right. And it's the story of Tony Montoya who is a Cuban criminal who arrives in Miami along with all these Cuban refugees. And it becomes kind of the head of this, this crime gang, right? This syndicate, um, it's based around cocaine, right? So it's not around alcohol, cause that would make sense in 1983 and it never made sense in 1920 but all right, well, but I mean the interesting thing is this, you're kind of supposed to like Tony Montoya a little bit, especially at key points in the movie. Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 50:03 Romanticize. And we, and that movie itself has become, he's so violent in a vial. Oh is, yeah, absolutely terrible.
Speaker 0 50:14 You know, it's interesting, you know, from 83 to 87 we get these two very different views, right. Al Capone, bad guy, Tony Montoya, maybe not a bad guy or maybe a guy making it in America or something, doing what it takes. I mean, as you know, as Gordon Gekko of wall street, the modern gangster,
Speaker 3 50:38 well he's a bad guy, but we like the bad guy, right? I mean, we know like, Oh, what he's doing is bad. But like that's why it's good, you know? And I mean, so I'm gonna go back really quickly to this, thinking about Hollywood and celebrity and the gangs and the mafia and all that stuff. I mean by the 1950s you have the rat pack, right? Who Frank Sinatra's like notoriously involved with the mob and with the Chicago outfit and going to Las Vegas and all that. I mean, I think there's definitely overlap because those people hadn't money. I like so much money and I'm just like running in the same circles, right? It's like George Carlin would say like, it's a big club and you're not in it. You know, there's all these people in money, you're running around with each other and they, it's, it's, um, kind of glamorized.
Speaker 3 51:30 It's all a part of that glamour. And the big part of that, there's the gender component of it. It's not just alcohol, it's prostitutes, right? I mean, these gang members and these, you know, mafia organizations and stuff like, it's like they're running prostitutes just like they're running alcohol and after prohibition that that creeps up the big again. And who's, you know, they're, they have like high end prostitutes and all this kind of stuff. Like it's, I think that there's a, there's a much deeper, broader connection from the 19 2030s, forties, 50s, 60s. Right? Like there's a lot of overlap even though the arrows are different and the um, uh, things that are being sold are illegally traded or whatever are different there. There's definitely, I would say, um, the common thread of the, it's there's celebrity involved and it's, um, it's romanticized because of the amount of money involved.
Speaker 0 52:31 Well, I mean maybe, I mean maybe right there is kind of the solution to kind of this romanticization of organized crime and stuff is pointing out okay. Like running boozes a victimless crime, right? I mean, apart from shooting your competitors apart from like lining people up in a garage, right, right. But I'm saying that the process itself is supposed to be victimless, right? Whereas these other things that organized crime gets involved in are definitely not victimless crimes.
Speaker 3 53:04 Oh no, no. Well, and how do we, so thinking about it, not just gossiping about Al Capone, but like how do we as historians kind of make peace with or remedy the fact that it's romanticized, but also people were very mad about it and it does create this expansion of the federal government. It does create a heightened police state. It does bolster law enforcement. How do we reconcile those things where like in popular culture it's something that is looked at as like, Oh, that's so cool. But at the time people were upset with the mob. People felt, you know, that there was, there was religious, like we talked about ethnic. Um, there was a lot of prejudice, you know, th like there weren't people, not everyone was romanticizing this. And so how do we, how do we remedy? Like how does that happen? Right? How does it go from, we're mad at these Italian Catholics to like, Oh, there's a poster of Scarface on somebody's wall on a college dorm and 20, 20, which I've seen. Right. Or I've seen Al Capone's picture, right? Like his <inaudible> I say it all the time. Like with my cat, like Sam, my little friend, little friend. Right? I mean it's,
Speaker 0 54:23 it's an interesting thing. I mean, it's, um, I mean, have Americans always been fascinated by criminals?
Speaker 3 54:31 I would argue yes. I mean, I've done work on that in the 19th century, thinking about like penny presses and dime novels and crime. Like, Oh, absolutely. We've been, we are totally obsessed with it. But how, like I said, how do we reconcile like those two, two prominent themes that run through American society that are so antithetical?
Speaker 0 54:57 One of the things I think we do is as historians, one of the, one of the main things that I find myself doing often is de romanticizing things for students. Yeah. And I, and I think that we kind of talked about how everybody was, you know, back uh, before new years where like I can't wait for 2020 cause it's going to be like the 1920s. They were so glamorous and everything. It's like really glamorous. Really. They were, I mean I guess if you are, if you are from a particular social economic class at a particular place at a particular time, sure. But um, for most people, I don't think it's a time they would care to return to you.
Speaker 3 55:44 When people ask me if I'd ever want to live in the past, my answer is always no, no. Part of the past that I'm interested in living with. I mean to be honest right now is not great either. But you know, what are you going to do?
Speaker 0 55:58 Well, I'm not willing to give up the stuff like the things I'm used to
Speaker 3 56:02 running hot water, get out of town. Of course, like, yeah, I mean all the things flushing toilets come on. Well I, my easy solution is if it's anytime before penicillin, no, I would be dead. I wouldn't have made it out of infancy. I would have 100% Ben infant mortality rate. Yeah. It's like, yeah, no, I'm going to made, I like the podcast. Um, it would be the prior at the time on demand internet. Don't care for Netflix. I'm out of here. What did we do before Netflix? It just, I was, it was funny, I was having a conversation with some colleagues the other day. It's like, I mean, we get used to these things very quickly. So this nostalgic view of the past, the further we get from it, I think it, it, it's easier to do it. And I think we're so a hundred years from the 1920 now, and I think people look back on it.
Speaker 3 56:52 You're like, those gangsters weren't all that bad. They were kind of fighting for their communities. No, they weren't. These are greedy men who saw an opportunity to make a buttload of money and exploit their communities. That's what I would like to say though. Initially. They're like, Oh, we don't, we're trying. We don't trust law enforcement. We want to protect your community. It's like, no, you're exploiting your community now. You're not doing anything to help. Oh, Oh yeah. Holy true. But we continue to make content that glorifies it. I mean, boardwalk empire. You seen that series? Oh yeah. Well, I mean, what's the Peaky blinders? I really liked that show. I people love that show, but it is glorifying crime, not in the United States, so, okay. So that's okay.
Speaker 3 57:45 But it's the same. It's the same time period with the same undertones and yeah, and the same, there's the same ethnic and class and um, you know, all those prejudice that are going on. I mean, how many high schools have casino night? Did they do that? Yeah, don't they? I thought that was just an episode of the office that was inappropriate. I know they do it and they and all the girls dress in flapper costumes and all the boys dress like gangsters. And isn't that funny? Did you go to, this is how often it happens.
Speaker 3 58:23 I know that other, that's a whole other bad thing. Like anybody who celebrates everybody, anybody who celebrates that novel didn't read the whole thing like no, I, and I don't mean, I don't mean celebrating it is be not good. I mean celebrate like bad stuff happens in that book. It's not a lot of bad stuff. It is. It is a warning. It is not a an Omaj Jay Gatsby is not supposed to be a person. You want to be. Tell that to high school literature teachers though because they are really jazzed on the book. And I use Jasmine intended pun intended, pun intended. Yeah. Remember I started this and I was like, Oh, there's no way. We're talking for an hour. Yeah. We went on our cultural, our cultural excursion through Hollywood film. This is probably the most unprofessional podcast we've ever done and I apologize for that.
Speaker 3 59:24 I don't know. I think we brought up Smith cursing. I was talking about hating classic wine. I said one curse word. I'm just saying we, you have to give me a list of films that I need to watch and I'm asking listeners to go on her Instagram comment, tell me what films I need to watch and I will watch them and, and we can start talking about that. If you're miserable with them, you should wash them though. Yeah. But it's kind of like how I don't like drinking wine, but I feel like I need to be classy. No, you know what I mean? I do, but it just seems odd. I love, I love sunset Boulevard over a glass of wine or something, you know, and I just, I can't do either.
Speaker 3 00:12 So it's at Boulevard. Great film. Uh, everybody hated that movie. Casa Blanca. Great film. Hated it. Citizen Kane. Great movie. No one was the one I watched for one. It's, it's, it's so classic and people got so mad at me that I didn't like it. It's the one about the bomb. Oh, dr. Strange lover. Stop worrying and love was a horrible movie. So K Oh, it's so good. Anyway, definitely send senior comments for Hillary about what movies you think she should watch. Um, um, yeah, I, you know, if you don't like him, you don't like him. Um, I blame my generation. Uh, well that's true. I mean it's, sometimes I have students watch for a couple of my classes, a couple of films on their own and they're all almost always like, that's so boring. It just dragged on and on. And it's the wizard of Oz. Oh God.
Speaker 3 01:23 I think it's a production quality that bothers me. It's so good for its time. See? And that's what I don't like to hear. It's so good for its time. Well, it sucks now. Sucks. I don't know. Does it, um, so any last words on organized crime? Al Capone, Saint Valentine's day massacre? Well, I think that it would be interesting to look into why we're so, I would like to continue to think about public memory because that's like part of our podcast. We say that we talk about that, but to go into like, why are we so interested in crime? I mean, we can talk about this in so many different facets at different periods, um, because it's still that way. I mean, if you look around like Netflix, I mean the true crime thing, it's crazy. I mean, it is a total craze. And so I'm interested in that and I think that I'd like for us to reflect on that, about our obsession with, yeah, right now. And I mean, and in our continued obsession with the 1920s and thirties in organized crime, because if you think about the people at that moment, they weren't obsessed and crazy and thought it was cool. Most people were, were upset by it. And, but then when it becomes not, I mean, 1950,
Speaker 0 02:42 1939 roaring twenties, there's this movie that comes out called roaring twenties, which is a real, uh, it's a classic gangster movie. It may be the quintessential gangster movie and it kind of valorizes these three guys come back from world war one and, you know, one of them ends up a mob boss. Um, and
Speaker 0 03:08 you know, so I think the valorization starts pretty quickly. Um, I don't think it's coincidental that most of the valorization kind of peaks during the great depression because I think the system and anything related to the system seemed to be failing so miserably at that point that anybody who fought against the system was automatically more, more likable. Kind of like a Robin hood sort of thing. Well it's Robin hood. I mean you in a, and then you get the peak of this with like 1960s with like the Bonnie and Clyde film, right? I mean, based on real people, right. This idea that, you know, they may have done some bad things and stuff, but they were fighting against the man. So that means something. Um, but again, I'll, I'll just go back to my earlier statement. I mean, don't forget Al Capone is not the man giving charitably to orphans, right? He is not, this is a brutal mob boss,
Speaker 3 04:12 brutal mob boss who is exploiting women who is punished for that by contracting syphilis and dying.
Speaker 0 04:21 Cause that's how the universe works. I mean, it's a coincidence. Well, I mean, this has been interesting and I think we could go on about this, but let's, let's kind of save some of our public history stuff for, uh, we're going to be talking a lot about public history over the episodes this coming year. I think, um, uh, public memory, how you do public history, uh, anytime you're looking at kind of an event that's been demonized or valorized at various points, there's a good opportunity to talk about that, right?
Speaker 3 05:03 Yeah. I'm in, and we have so many of these moments coming up with it being 20, 20. I dunno, it, it does being the start of the decade creates a space to be talking about what happened last decade and the decade before then. All that. So there's a lot to talk about. But thank you for joining us today. This was a fun one. Sorry. We've been out for a few weeks. There was technical difficulties and all that, but I'm hoping we'll be on a more regular schedule now. Yeah, make sure you join us next time on an incomplete history. And I'm Hillary.
