21 - Thanksgiving

Speaker 1 00:00:03 So good afternoon, Hillary. Speaker 0 00:00:05 Hello? How are you? Speaker 1 00:00:07 Uh, not bad, not bad at all. Uh, all things considered, uh, as, as Thanksgiving we'll look in the fall of COVID, uh, Speaker 0 00:00:18 I'm still making the same exact menu. It's just, there's just gonna be extra leftovers. Speaker 1 00:00:23 Oh yeah. I am too. I mean, it's like, I figure, well, I mean, it's, I've already got Christmas decorations out. Um, they've been up since Halloween. Speaker 0 00:00:34 I would be very upset about, but in 2020, I've decided not Speaker 1 00:00:38 I would too. I really do not want to see Christmas decorations till after the Turkey has been eaten. Yeah. Was have to be gone too. Right then I can stomach. Thanks then I can stomach Christmas decorations and stuff. But this year I was just like November 1st PI put Halloween stuff away and just started bringing out the Christmas stuff and Speaker 0 00:00:58 Bunny show on the road. Speaker 1 00:01:00 Well, the funny thing is I noticed neighbors have done the same thing. Like my neighborhood, many, many houses have Christmas lights up and they've had them up for several weeks now. Um, cause I think everybody's like, yep, we need Christmas curly. Speaker 0 00:01:14 We need to just get this year over with. But it was sad for me because I do like, I think people want some Christmas cheer, but I also think people have this very strange idea that like, well, 2020 was awful, but it will be 20, 21 soon and everything will be better. And I'm like looking that way. Speaker 1 00:01:35 Remember it's always darkest right before it's pitch black. Speaker 0 00:01:39 That's true. And the other thing is that like, when I used to live in Pennsylvania and there was no sunshine, Christmas was really fun. Cause they were like, Oh you see the first snow and there's music and there's lights and it's so wonderful. And you feel so warm and cozy. And I had this idea when I first moved there that like, Oh, it stops being cold. You know like after Christmas ish and no, no, I learned very quickly that winter lasts in Pennsylvania, like into April. Speaker 1 00:02:11 Yeah. You're such a California. Speaker 0 00:02:13 I didn't know. And that was like, cause I was like, Oh, around January, February, it'll just start to kind of warm up. Speaker 1 00:02:19 So in New York whole this time, yeah, in New York, we used to have this, this January thought, but then February. Oh my God. I remember our last, our last year in New York city. I remember April of that year was so cold. So very, very cold. And I was like, I cannot leave soon enough. Speaker 0 00:02:41 We had a huge snow in Pennsylvania on Easter one year. Um, and we had snow one year even into may. And it's like, it's kind of, you get so depressed over it. And this is what I'm concerned about with COVID and everything is that people think like, Oh, is going to make it better and then we'll be happy. And maybe it will be like a little happy with the music, but all that's going to go in January and you're going to be cold in the dead of winter with this virus raging. And I don't think people have fully prepared for that darkness and sadness. That's going to be happening. And gosh, we're three minutes in and I'm already doing, Speaker 1 00:03:21 I think I'm keeping Christmas decorations up till Mardi Gras. Speaker 0 00:03:26 I support that again. Ordinarily I'd have the decorations down by epiphany, January 6th. They come down. Maybe there'll be around until a Valentines. I don't know, holiday the holiday. Speaker 1 00:03:41 I mean, it's, it's Mardi Gras, a lot of houses in kind of the, the South around Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama. They, they keep lights up until Mardi Gras. So yeah, let's permissible, but let's talk about Thanksgiving. So we're skipping over Thanksgiving here. We're just obsessed. But uh, today we're going to talk about Thanksgiving, right? We're going to kind of try to delve into Thanksgiving and what it is and maybe what it isn't and where it comes from and kind of the imagination of Thanksgiving and maybe a little bit of where some of our traditions come from and, and hopefully a little bit about kind of controversies about Thanksgiving. Why some people don't like maybe the way it's imagined or celebrated welcome to an incomplete history. I'm Hillary and I'm Jeff and we're your hosts for this weekly history. Speaker 0 00:04:32 <inaudible> Speaker 1 00:04:54 So Thanksgiving, Speaker 0 00:04:56 Thanksgiving, I want to, so what Speaker 1 00:04:59 Does, so what does, uh, what did Thanksgiving dinner look like for you growing up? I hope Speaker 0 00:05:06 I'm not going to offend anybody in my family who listens, but Thanksgiving was my least favorite holiday because it's so disgusting. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:05:17 What food give us the food first Speaker 0 00:05:20 And um, just, just terrible. I hated it. So we would have, we would go to my grandma's house and my grandma's Italian and she is not very good at cooking food. That's not Italian food. Um, so we would have Turkey, we would have stuffing, we would have cranberry like a can of cranberry sauce. Like you could still see the grooves in the cranberry. And it was, was just revolting. Like, and I would be so sad and my Grammy used to make me moose to cellie on the side. And so I would just eat most the chili. Cause it was just terrible and like roles that can't like busted biscuits that came out of like, uh, you know, one of those like, uh, rules that you get at the store. It's just terrible. And since I've been an adult and learned how to cook, like I like Thanksgiving now because I'll actually like cook things from scratch and kind of, I don't know, just make it taste butter was terrible. What about like your Thanksgiving? Speaker 1 00:06:22 Well, what'd you have for dessert Speaker 0 00:06:24 Pies and my mom would make pies and my mom was like the best pie maker ever and I'll, I'll fight someone. Um, we would have pumpkin pie, Apple pie and um, I don't want to get in trouble for saying it wrong, but pecan pie or pecan pie. My mom would call it pecan pie. Speaker 1 00:06:44 Okay. All right. I mean, what did we have? Um, it's I actually have pretty fond memories, although the Turkey was never my favorite part because it was dry. Um, the only part of the Turkey that I found edible was the dark meat, which may be why that's still to this day. What I actually prefer on the Turkey because it's even if the Turkey itself is over cooked, the dry meat is usually at least edible, um, who had, um, stuffing or dressing. And there's a whole, if we can get a whole kind of argument about what that is or not growing up in the South, ours was based on corn bread. It was not based on bread cubes. It was, it was cornbread based. So my mom would make like a big pan of cornbread usually the day before and then crumble it up and stuff. It was the stuffing was my favorite part, honestly, like that was my favorite part. Um, we would have the Turkey and we'd have the stuffing. She'd make a gravy, a Gimlet gravy with all the little parts that come in the bag in the Turkey. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:07:54 I was both horrified by that, but had been triaged by it. I liked the way it tasted, but I didn't like the thought of what was in it. Plus there was naughty and there were random pieces of hard-boiled egg in it as well, which was odd. I still don't understand that, but it kind of worked. Um, do you carry that tradition? Yeah. Yeah, I do. Cause I really, I mean, you put a big mound of stuffing and then you put some dark Turkey meat on top of it and then you smother it with the gravy and he got little, yeah, you got some little egg in there and you got some piece of Turkey liver or maybe some Turkey, heart Turkey, kidney and unidentifiable Turkey innards. Um, but yeah, I really liked that. And then cranberry sauce is interesting. We used to, when I was really little, we used to have the one out of the can, um, that I loved, I just loved the taste of it. Speaker 1 00:08:44 I was like, yeah, but it was looking back on it. It was odd because it was served. It was always sliced, which I guess minute made it more dainty. You look at yourself, feel like this is still on the shape of a can. Um, but eventually, and I don't know when my mother started doing this and eventually we moved to, she started making a cranberry orange relish. That was a lot tarter, a lot less sweet and fresh cause she used fresh cranberries and fresh oranges and yeah. And that works really well. And I really liked that. Um, and then we'd have like some kind of sweet potato thing going on. Um, not mashed, but usually like chunks of sweet potatoes. Um, not with marshmallows though. Like the marshmallows thing. I knew people did it. Um, and I am forced to this day to make that with marshmallows in our house because that's, what's demanded. Speaker 1 00:09:43 I don't like it. I think it's way too sweet. I think it's just like sweet on sweet and sweet, but that, uh, usually some kind of green bean thing, but not necessarily green bean casserole. I'm trying to think of what else was always a part of it and then pie, pumpkin pie and many times, um, a chocolate pecan pie. Ooh. Yeah, that sounds good. Recipe came off a pack of German bakers, German chocolate, German, big bakers, German chocolate. Um, and yeah, it was good. I mean it's, we would, um, you know, growing up in South football was really big, so football would be on, um, there'd be college games on and then we'd, you know, later in the day, the whoever the Cowboys or Detroit lions were playing would go on. Cause those were the two big kind of games around Thanksgiving. Um, we'd might, um, go outside and throw the football around or something after dinner. Um, but yeah, I mean, it was, it was interesting because, um, I don't think my Thanksgiving was much different than most other middle class, white Protestant families, Thanksgiving. I think we all kind of had a similar experience with it. There was nothing religious though. No, the only religious thing is there'd be a prayer. There'd be a prayer at the beginning of dinner. Speaker 0 00:11:18 So that was what was interesting for me. That would be the only religious thing. And with my family, there was a divide. Like, so when you were talking about some of the things that your family would prepare, my mom's family is from the South, so she would bring cornbread stuffing, but the rest of the family would look at it like yo. And so just like me and my mom and my brother would eat that and I really liked it. And it would be like this weird divide in like you talking about your own experience. I was like, Oh yeah, there were some things that I like to eat, but the whole experience was weird because we would have this meal on the table that nobody really liked. I don't think, but then we would pray. We never prayed before we ate. And then suddenly on Thanksgiving, like we have to say a prayer and I'm like, what? Like, so it's not, it was not a religious holiday for us because I grew up going to Catholic school, but there was a prayer before it. And so when I was researching for today, I realized like, well of course like it, it all kind of clicked of like, Oh, of course, like there's some really small leftover piece of what it originally was that gets brought into the 20th and 21st century. And that would be the little prayer before eating. Speaker 1 00:12:41 Well, I mean, I think there are two strains, right? There are two kinds of threads that lead into contemporary Thanksgiving. So there's like the Puritan thread that we can talk about. But then there's also the older kind of harvest festival thread, right. That, that actually is even pre-Christian right. It doesn't rely on Christianity to kind of be a thing, but the Puritan one is very infused with kind of Calvinist ideas. Um, and I, and that's the one kids when they use, I don't know if kids still have like Thanksgiving pageants. Um, but when they used to, that's the one they used to celebrate where I was 16, 21. Speaker 0 00:13:21 Yeah. The, the idea of the first Thanksgiving and as being rooted in something that's very American. But when we dive into it deeper, it's like, well, it's not American at all. And it has other roots and it has other purposes. But I think the idea of it is a national holiday is something pretty new. Um, at the end, the idea that as being one day that is celebrated where back when Thanksgiving, the first Thanksgiving that we talk about, you're saying 1621, but you know, those, that date could be disputed or say it's was done before or after, but days of Thanksgiving, weren't just once a year. Right. You could have there a day of Thanksgiving any time. Speaker 1 00:14:18 Yeah. I mean, do you want to run us through the narrative of that first Thanksgiving? 1621? Like who the, like why they decided to have a Thanksgiving? Speaker 0 00:14:28 Oh man, I don't, it's not like a run-through thing really? Is it? I mean, it's like the Puritans had, Speaker 1 00:14:36 Let's call it the pilgrims. Let's talk about the pilgrims. Hey, back to the way you were taught in school, about how it happened. You Speaker 0 00:14:44 Want me to say like the way I was taught in school Speaker 1 00:14:47 Or that we're talking about reality. Okay. Speaker 0 00:14:53 All right. So the way it's taught in school is that there's pilgrims and they had all this food because they had really good luck that year. And they realized that they had some neighbors that were nearby and they invited their neighbors, the Indians to come over and have food. And then they shook hands and they all sat down at a super long table and they all had a great meal and fun together. And they hugged and became really good friends after they had this meal. Speaker 1 00:15:25 Didn't the Indians like help the pilgrims that summer and fall. I showed them how to show them how to plant corn Speaker 0 00:15:34 As a welcoming kind of a thing, like Speaker 1 00:15:36 How to put it, how to put a fish, right. How to put a fish in with the seeds, when you planted the corn and all this stuff, it was just a wonderful relationship. Right? And this, this dinner is like this, this being thankful for them Speaker 0 00:15:51 Of their love for one another. Speaker 1 00:15:53 Right. And it's this moment of just harmony and joy and God shining down on the Pilgrim endeavor in Plymouth and it's complete Speaker 0 00:16:07 Wait. And when does it start to be taught that way? Those are the questions I wanted to. Speaker 1 00:16:12 Right, right. And I think the question is the same of why is, why was the revolution taught for so long the way it was taught? Um, why is anything taught the way it's taught? And I think it was part of a broader national narrative, right? I think it was mythologizing this moment and minimizing any suffering or kind of destruction that comes out of it. And pointing back to a moment maybe where things were better was viewed as important. But I mean, let's talk about, so the Wampanoags are the people that the Puritans, the pilgrims would have been interacting with, Speaker 0 00:16:51 And that's a really good point right there alone because we never even are taught the name of the tribe. It's always just some unidentified tribe, just Indians. Right. That's Speaker 1 00:17:04 I love when they're depicted as Plains Indians also. Yeah. That's it, it's just like, it's just like, uh, okay, well, yeah. It's like these, the words Lakota, like, like, but I mean, so the Wampanoags, there's this contentious relationship, right. And I know I've been doing this a lot late, but I want to recommend this, uh, William Cronin's changes in the land. He talks about the land that the pilgrims come into and what it looks like. And, you know, I always tell my students to actually exercise this kind of practice of empathy with historical subjects, try to imagine why they do the things they do and why they think those things are the correct choice. But I mean, you're a Pilgrim and you've like, come over on the Mayflower and he lands and you, you land in this place where it looks almost park-like the undergrowth between the trees is being cleaned out. The trees are kind of spaced out somewhat. And in a Pilgrim's mind that almost seems like God is like prepared this land for you to settle Speaker 0 00:18:11 On, Speaker 1 00:18:13 But that's not the reality. Right? I mean, diseases had been devastating. These coastal populations for decades, um, spreading out of, kind of earlier contacts with the Spanish and the Southeast and the Wampanoags and other people were aware of Europeans, they knew who you Europeans were. Um, and they also knew that usually interactions with Europeans. It did poorly for non-Europeans. Speaker 0 00:18:44 Yeah. And so there is a bit of truth to the Thanksgiving myth that the Wampanoags reached out to the English settlers as an opportunity to form an Alliance because of this decimation. Right. Because they were reaching out because, Oh, let's be friends, but it's like, let's survive it. Wasn't Speaker 1 00:19:11 Yeah. We need somebody to help us. Yes. Um, and, and that's the thing the English become embroiled very quickly in this conflict between the Wampanoags and other tribes. And, and this, this plays into the whole thing of kind of, uh, uh, Iroquois speaking, uh, peoples versus Heran speaking people, it kind of these large political alliances fighting one another. Speaker 0 00:19:37 Yeah. And there, because it's not just the English who were there, there's French who were there, right. There are different countries, Europeans who were in the area. And a lot of native tribes tried to make alliances with the Europeans because they needed to, they needed to survive. They're being decimated by diseases. They see these, there's an encroachment on their land. And it's almost like a, well, this is the only way we're going to survive is if we start trying to get along with some of these people around here, otherwise we're all going to be completely wiped out. It's not out of friendliness. Speaker 1 00:20:19 Right. Right. So, I mean, that's the Wampanoag position, but for the Puritans slash pilgrims in their head, they construct this reality where again, this is God's Providence. This is God setting things out for them. Right. And I do believe some of them mistook what the Wampanoags did as just reaching out for friendship because of why wouldn't you want to be friends with the Puritans. Speaker 0 00:20:50 Right. Well, and it's convenient too, to have this narrative to say, okay, this meal is now symbolic of your acceptance of colonialism. You know, you sat down with us, you said, we're friends, we're an Alliance. You accept us taking over. You accept us taking your land. Um, you accept our encroachment here because we're all just friends now. And it's there, there were so many moments where there were tensions, but alliances, but, you know, w with all these clashes of cultures and we kind of zero in on this one moment here, in order to legitimize the American story, the American mythology, the idea that, you know, that there weren't people here who were upset, um, with the encroachment on land that we'll know we have this meal and everything was chill. Right. Speaker 1 00:21:50 Right. And it stands in stark contrast to Cortez, conquest of Mexico, right. The English really buy into and help further this whole, uh, black legend about the Spanish, right. Where the Spanish came in and just killed indigenous people left and right. And, and which isn't entirely false, but isn't the whole story. And the English really does portray themselves as trying to do something different. Speaker 0 00:22:19 Well, they're, they're benevolent neighborly, Speaker 1 00:22:23 But they're neighborly, but there are clear divisions between them, right? So the English, unlike the Spaniards, and unlike the French where the divisions, aren't kind of policed for the Puritans in new England, there is a clear rule that you are not meant to go interact intimately with indigenous people with the Wampanoags or anybody else. Right. That that to be English is to be English. And that means you cannot kind of intermingle. And I mean, this ends up causing a lot of conflict in new England, right? There's this series of Wars that, that get fought, um, that really emerge out of this idea that first, the English misunderstand the political situation. They find themselves involved in second, the Wampanoags maybe assumed the Puritans are going to fulfill their obligations out of this friendship consistently, which they don't. And finally the English start to not even really differentiate amongst groups of Indians. I mean, is that fair to say they do that? Okay. Speaker 0 00:23:41 Uh, yeah, they don't. Um, and that carries over into our translation of what happened. And we have these problems all the time where we create, um, monoliths out of distinct groups of people with distinct languages, cultures, traditions, and motivations, but to just say, well, it's all native people. Don't even, we don't even differentiate tribe name. We don't even differentiate, you know, regionally. Um, and when you're taught in schools, interesting, like what you're saying about planes and Dan's or something, right. It's just like, Oh, Indians live in teepees. What? No Speaker 1 00:24:26 Few groups at a specific place at a specific time, Speaker 0 00:24:30 For a specific reason. Yeah. And so I think that that starts early, where there's just this lumping together of people to say, they're all the same. They're all native people. They're all the same. But I mean, I, I do remember to be fair. I do remember, like we had specific lessons in elementary school about, you know, the Iroquois lived here and they had these types of clothes and, you know, and we did go over certain tribes. I, I'm not going to completely drag my education, but for the most part, particularly in a discussion about Thanksgiving, there was no nuance to it. There was no nuance and it was all to further this nationalistic agenda and this, um, kind of the cementing of the idea that you are here in this country, the United States of America exists because it was sanctioned. You know, like it was, it was allowed and nobody was upset and there was nothing bad about it. And, you know, the, the land was mostly empty. And then there were some, you know, nice Indians nearby who helped us plant corn, you know, it's to, it starts really young of creating this foundational idea, the manifest destiny idea, right. That there's just this empty land. And it was just being waiting to be filled with people. Speaker 1 00:25:56 Right. Yeah. I mean, this is, this is the whole pure Puritan an idea, right? The Puritans are Calvinist, right? So they have kind of very clear ideas of, of God's Providence, right? God kind of putting out this path for them to follow. They have a choice to follow that, but the path has put out there by God, if they want to follow it. And they really adhere to this idea and they look for signs constantly. I mean, go back to our episode, just to kind of self-promote here, go back to our upset on the Salem witch trials, right? The Puritans are constantly looking for signs to kind of validate their relationship with God or confirm it right. To confirm, are they actually doing what they're supposed to be doing or are they getting off track? Is there corruption in their community, all these things. But I wanted before we get too much on, I wanted to comment on the thing about the Iroquois. Of course you learned about the Iroquois because they set up an Iroquois Confederacy that certainly seemed similar to European political alliances. Right. And, and that's the thing is that's the one group that maybe children do learn something about, Speaker 0 00:26:57 Well, we learned about jerky for similar reasons because they started, you know, assimilating into the courts and to try to fight for their lands, you know, through legal channels and things like that. But yeah, you're right. Those, those are the tribes you learn more about. Cause that important word, right? It's like, Oh well that's civilized. And just that alone is a huge problem when talking about the, um, the variants and the, and the, you know, the different motivations. And one thing I'll say too, is that you thinking about Providence, they see that there's the leader of the Wampanoags comes forward and says, let's, you know, kind of create this alliancing. There was a lot of dissent within the tribe itself. Not all of the Wampanoags thought it was a good idea to go over and talk to the Europeans. And oftentimes we simplify the past so much that we forget just thinking about our own time period, that everybody has their own unique opinion. Everybody has their own political motivations. Everybody has their own economic motivations or whatever, and it's not any different for people living in that time period for, you know, the Puritans in the time period, but also, um, all these different native tribes and people were there was dissent within their own tribes. Speaker 1 00:28:24 Well, this is, I mean, this is a big thread that continues, right. Is this idea that this, this chief there's the argument, okay. Maybe you represent your, your specific group, but you do not represent Wampanoags in general Speaker 0 00:28:38 Because some, so many Wampanoags knew that any Alliance with Europeans was going to create more death, more disease, more encroachment on land, and they weren't wrong. That being said, they're in this impossible position, you know, you create the Alliance and maybe you survive for a little while longer, or you don't create the Alliance and, and you risk being, you know, war being waged against you. If there is resistance because we see that time and time again. So it's like leaders at this time are in this horrible position, you know, trying to make decisions what's best for their people, but it's not, there's no good decision to be made. And to, to ignore the nuance of that, I think is damaging for us, understanding Thanksgiving. And I think it's especially damaging when you have school age children and you're keep relaying this myth because it doesn't, it kind of lays the groundwork for not for people not being able to understand history. I have college students who just like to relay events. This happened, then this happened, then this happened on this date and that date. It's like, that's not history. That's not talking about history. That's not analyzing what's happening. The, the, um, the details, the, the significance of events. Right. Speaker 1 00:30:09 Well, I mean, so let's talk about kind of as this, this event in 16, 21 starts to become mythologized because the moment it happens, it starts to be portrayed by certain groups one way and other groups a different way. So after, soon after this event in the autumn of 16, 21, evidently a three day event of some type, it was kinda lit. You know, it sounds pretty awesome if, if, if the accounts are to be, to believe, but, uh, Edward Wilson Winslow writes a letter back to England where he kind of recounts it and he says, in God, be praised. We had a good increase. Our harvest being gotten in our governor, sent four men on fouling so that we might, after a special manner rejoiced together, these things, I thought, good to let you understand that you might on our behalf, give God, thanks who have dealt so favorably with us. And this is kind of the Puritan Thanksgiving starts to crystallize here, right? So this gets shared back in England and it actually gets shared pretty widely across, around England and around Puritan communities. Right? Because it's, it's kind of confirmation that God favors the Puritans and likes what they're doing, Speaker 0 00:31:23 But it doesn't become cemented as like an annual celebration. Speaker 1 00:31:27 No, not at all. Speaker 0 00:31:29 There was this one moment that was really significant. Speaker 1 00:31:32 That is yeah. Go harvest things are generally annual, right? Speaker 0 00:31:39 Yes. Yes. But not based or steeped in this event. Speaker 1 00:31:44 Right. So, I mean, you have these competing things about kind of this older idea of a harvest fee, something that's, that goes that's pre-Christian right. It's not related to Christianity at all, but then you have this kind of very Puritan version, which is a Christian I'd call it a Christian re signification of the harvest festival. Speaker 0 00:32:06 Yes. Which Christians tend to do with many festivals. Right. The bringing the tree in for Christmas, that's a pagan thing. Right. So they, Oh, the Christians love to repurpose holidays. Cause you know, they want to celebrate, um, Speaker 1 00:32:19 Bunnies and eggs, Speaker 0 00:32:22 Which I still think that South park has the best. Excellent, Speaker 1 00:32:25 Excellent. Easter hepatitis, hepatitis. Sorry. Um, I'm sorry, Hillary and I both have an obsession with South park. Um, watch the Easter episode. It is really funny. Um, but I mean, this is, so you've got this older kind of pagan holiday and now you have this Christian recertification, but for the most part that doesn't really get standardized surprisingly from the kind of the first half of the 17th century up until 1777. It's not, it it's periodically celebrated, but it's not really anything coherent or cohesive. It's also a very new England thing Speaker 0 00:33:13 When it's not thematic and it's not based on the first Thanksgiving people aren't every time that there. And that's the thing too, I guess, just breaking down the word. It's really just a day that certain leaders would set aside to give thanks. Like, Oh, something good happened. So today we're having a Thanksgiving and sometimes it could mean fasting. Sometimes it didn't mean feasting. A lot of times these days of thanks, particularly if they're rooted in a religious ceremony or religiously, oftentimes these things are fasting days, not feasting days. And even when it's picked up again by, I think George Washington Def you know, declared a Thanksgiving, the continental Congress declared Thanksgiving in 1777, but it's not a yearly tradition, um, allies and Monroe declare it, but it's not usually up to, you know, it's not, it's not necessarily connected to the 1621 feast with the woman, Speaker 1 00:34:19 Right. I mean that 1777 when really has to do with the revolution. Yeah. Right. Is changing the war right at this time. And the proclamation recommended survival labor in such recreations. Although at other times, innocent, maybe unbecoming the purpose of this appointment and should be admitted on so solemn occasion. So it's kind of a very grim kind of reflection and remembrance on the kind of the terrible situation they find themselves in. It's not about pumpkin pie at all. At that moment. It is not about pumpkin pine, nor is it about cornbread stuffing. And you know, by the period, right after the war of 1812, it just kind of falls out of, it's not even really mentioned. Speaker 0 00:35:04 No, no. And then in the 1820s, there's a campaign started Speaker 1 00:35:12 Ladies, ladies, ladies, ladies book, right. I mean, it's, I love this, this magazine. I am obsessed. I'm obsessed with two 19th century publications, goatees ladies book and the national police Gazette. Speaker 0 00:35:26 I like the national police cause that, and I like, Harper's bizarre. Speaker 1 00:35:29 Oh, I love Harper's bizarre too. That's they've got 19th century magazines, but I mean, this is the power of print culture, right? I mean, it's, we have people finding about the media's influence today, but print culture, particularly these magazines become so powerful in 19th century America Speaker 0 00:35:53 Because everybody wants it. Speaker 1 00:35:56 Yeah, go ahead. Speaker 0 00:35:57 Yeah. So Sarah Joseph hail in the 1820s and 1827, she starts this campaign, a concerted campaign to make Thanksgiving a national holiday. Um, a little side note about her. She's the person who wrote Mary had a little lamb, which I love that little track, but she's campaigning all the time. You know, Thanksgiving should be a national holiday. Thanksgiving should be a national holiday and she's beating this drum and, and there's, you know, these women's magazines and, and I think it has a lot to do what we talked about last week about this budding cult of domesticity, right? Of like, we need to have this national feast or holiday that's, you know, it brings the nation together. And we all set aside this time to be thankful. And still, even at this time, it's still not related to the 1621 Wampanoags, um, and Puritan dinner. It's, it's not at that time. Speaker 0 00:36:52 And it, it's still very much rooted in just, well, sometimes we have days of thanks. Um, and it's not until 1863 that Sarah Joseph hail is actually able to convince Abraham Lincoln that there should be a national celebration of Thanksgiving. And if you know, 1863, you're in the midst of the civil war and she makes this argument like, Hey, this'll be a great way to unify everybody. If we have a national holiday, it doesn't work. But that's, that's when she finally succeeded. So she takes, you know, decades to being able to, to say that there should be a national holiday, but it's not until even decades after that, that we start to see more discussion about Thanksgiving as being rooted in the colonial era. Speaker 1 00:37:45 Well, I mean, it's so 1863 Lincoln declares to Thanksgivings that there's one in August for Gettysburg. Speaker 0 00:37:53 Yeah. And that's a day of thanks for winning the battle of Gettysburg. Speaker 1 00:37:58 And then the other is the last November last Thursday in November. Um, and it's, and that's the interesting thing is that for Lincoln, it is all about, I mean, when, so when Sarah Hale like talks about uniting the country, arguing it'll unite the country, I think she does mean the North. I don't think she thinks it's going to unite the South because Thanksgiving just has not up to this point ever really taken a hold in the South. It's not really something they do. Speaker 0 00:38:29 I'm glad they did come in and invent the cornbread stuffing though. Okay. Speaker 1 00:38:32 I am too. Right. But yeah, it's not until the end of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century that suddenly people are like, well, you know what, this has a lot to do with that feast in 16, 21, much more than it does with Lincoln declaring two Thanksgivings in the midst of the civil war. And I would like to make an argument as to why they focus back on 1621. Speaker 0 00:38:56 I, I would look to, to, and maybe we're an agreeance go. Speaker 1 00:39:00 Uh, I think it, a lot of it has to do with there's this period at the end of the 19th century, where there's a rallying around recasting the civil war as this lost cause trying to unite the North and the South and moving the origin of Thanksgiving from the civil war context back to 16, 21, theoretically brings all Americans. And by all Americans, I actually mean white Americans because that's all they cared about back together, culturally. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:39:35 I could see that as being like a let's all just get together. And we're all friends again, sort of argument. What about the closing of the frontier? Speaker 1 00:39:46 I think that's another important thing, right? I mean, I think it allays, I think in a Lay's collective guilt about what Americans may be fear they've done too soon. Speaker 0 00:39:57 Yeah. So the late 19th century, you've you have a complete expansion across what is now now referred to as the continental United States, there are Europeans and every single facet and all these States are coming into being, um, and you finally have what we know now as a more like cohesive United States of America forming at this time. And I think creating this national mythology becomes even more pressing in the late 19th century to say, Hey, we've got a history that goes all the way back to 1621. And you have the closing of the Wars that are going on between still. I mean, you study this, um, uh, you know, the Wars going on between native tribes and, um, the United States after the civil war. And I think it's almost like by the 1890s, when you start getting this focus on the 1621 feast that they're almost trying to shut that chapter does that Speaker 1 00:41:02 I think they are right. I think they're trying to recast Anglo Indian relationships as having this ideal moment bank in 1621 and trying to Speaker 0 00:41:13 Like an underlying there's an underlying positivity to it. And that we need to just, Speaker 1 00:41:20 Even when things got messy, there was always this respect, the English descendants had for Indians, because we were friends false. I mean, it's very paternalistic. Yeah. Um, but then I think there's a third reason. I mean, I think that's it, that's a great reason as well. I think the third reason is it becomes a way to Americanize the vast number of immigrants that are suddenly entering the country. Speaker 0 00:41:46 Yes. And, and how do you do that though through education, if you were to ask my husband, why, why is this the case? He always says, well, it's an education story. You start to see compulsory education, um, happening more so in the late 19th century. And there are Americanization programs that take, you know, form in the elementary education sort of realm and the idea to Americanize, to create mythology, to create a history, um, that everyone's just kind of feels good about is really important at this time. And you can, secularize Speaker 1 00:42:25 16, 21 to some ways you can, you can abstract it. And instead of, I mean, you can still call them Puritans or pilgrims or whatever, but you can take the religion and say, look, they were escaping religious persecution. Speaker 0 00:42:38 Well, that is the first time really that it is that we start considering it secular because it was very clearly not in, in the 18th century and into the 19th century because Thomas Jefferson refused to have Thanksgiving as a national holiday, or he refused to declare a Thanksgiving. Cause you had Washington Adams and Monroe do it, but not Jefferson. Right? You had one, two and four do it, but not three. And he, his reasoning for that was because he was strictly against, um, church and state mingling. And he's very much saw Thanksgiving as a religious holiday, but by the 19th century, they're able to secularize it and say, no, it's an American holiday. It's not a Christian holiday. Hmm. Speaker 1 00:43:27 I mean, I think the reason Jefferson really hates it the most is because Adams liked him Speaker 0 00:43:31 Could be, could be too. But that's what he cites is his reason. Right. And firmly, no, this is a religious holiday. We wouldn't say that now you wouldn't know anybody. You know, they wouldn't say that Thanksgiving's a religious holiday. It's just like, Oh, it's an American holiday, but it's holiday too. So Speaker 1 00:43:57 Right. Going to a worship service is not part of how most people celebrate Thanksgiving. Speaker 0 00:44:03 No, unless you're my grandma who church for everything. Speaker 1 00:44:08 This idea of Americanizing immigrants, I think is a really important thing because this is when kind of the contours of what a proper Thanksgiving should be really start to solidify in Turkey becomes kind of the centerpiece. Speaker 0 00:44:22 There was no Turkey at the first Thanksgiving. That one, Speaker 1 00:44:33 I mean, some ducks could have been a Turkey. Could have been some pork, Canada goose some shellfish. I, yeah. I've heard lobster lobster. That's yeah. That's exactly. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:44:48 That seems really weird. But you know what, in the Northeast that oftentimes there is lobster as an appetizer for Thanksgiving still to this day, like dips and stuff. Speaker 1 00:44:58 Yeah. I, but I, but I think this idea that Turkey and roast are kind of the centerpiece meat dishes have a long history of occupying the place of prominence at celebration tables. Right? So they're tapping much longer kind of idea, but they standardize it as Thanksgiving and it's, and it's interesting because it becomes a way to claim membership in the United States of America, the fourth Thursday in November, you have this feast with your family and at the middle of the table is a Turkey Speaker 0 00:45:36 Wanting to be the national Speaker 1 00:45:37 Bird, which would be no, it's Speaker 0 00:45:41 Not. I think it's, I think it's viciously American Speaker 1 00:45:44 That we eat the American bird then. Well, that would be very Catholic. Wouldn't it? Um, I mean, the interesting thing though, is that, so the Turkey becomes a centerpiece, but what's really what I really find interesting. A lot of other standards at a Thanksgiving dinner that we mentioned, and you did not grow up in the South right now that we mentioned actually a lot of these emerged from the South. Um, so you get like new England dishes, you get ditches. And, and it's an interesting, I mean, there's some interesting symbolism going on there, but Speaker 0 00:46:26 Making Mac and cheese with my Thanksgiving meal, because I realized that that was what this, cause there are a lot of people in the South, it's like a staple for Thanksgiving. Speaker 1 00:46:36 We had this argument, I think you asked me about it. It was like, we would never have macaroni and cheese, Speaker 0 00:46:43 But like I'm, I'm always looking for an excuse to have baked macaroni and cheese. Speaker 1 00:46:47 Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean our district, Speaker 0 00:46:50 It was kind of a carb overkill. Like if you have like mashed potatoes and corn bread stuffing. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:46:56 We never had control at that point, no mashed potatoes with your Turkey, you had sweet potatoes and you had the stuffing. Hmm. That's sensible. That's where your carbs, but that's all dessert. And then dessert. It was just like carb overload. Speaker 0 00:47:18 Get back though, to some traditions that come around Thanksgiving is you're talking about the, the food on the table and it can vary by region. And I was reading that like in the Southwest, sometimes people put like chilies into their Turkey and stuff like that to help like, you know, like aromatics like that. Um, but yeah, Speaker 2 00:47:36 I've heard people oysters in their dressing. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Speaker 0 00:47:43 That's not allowed. Uh, the, the other center though, and you mentioned, this is football, right. And 1876 is when you see the first Thanksgiving football game, Yale versus Princeton. And this is, so what I would say is before Thanksgiving was secular, alive, secularized as an American tradition and not a religious tradition football actually predated that it's been more about football for longer than it has been about Americans for longer. Is that fair to say? Speaker 2 00:48:19 Yeah, I think so. I went to, uh, back when I lived back East, I went to a Harvard Princeton football game. That sounds really fancy. Yes. And it was one of the most boring things I've ever been to in my entire life, a good friend. And I went and we were like both from the South. So we were like rooting like southerners for football. And it was just not looked well upon, like they were just like, who are these two people that go Prince John Kellogg, blah, blah, blah. And people are looking at us like, what are they doing? Um, no, no, it was so boring too. It was so, Oh my God. Like, uh, yeah, if you're a big football fan, treat yourself and go watch an Ivy league football game. They're hilarious. Speaker 0 00:49:11 I've never been or watched one, but I can imagine it's rather stuffy. Speaker 2 00:49:17 Yeah. Very different than like Ole miss would celebrate. Speaker 0 00:49:21 I mean, they wear like suits and stuff to the Kmart, Speaker 2 00:49:25 But they get rowdy at the game as well though. Speaker 0 00:49:29 I've not been to any of those games, either shame on me, I suppose. Speaker 2 00:49:33 Yeah. So you've got football, but you've also got other things, right. You've got parades parades. Speaker 0 00:49:38 So the Macy's Thanksgiving day parade, uh, becomes a tradition in the 1920s. The first Macy's Thanksgiving parade though, didn't have balloons like we see now, but they had actual animals from the central park zoo in the parade. Speaker 2 00:49:57 Yeah. Speaker 0 00:50:01 They were taking a lions out into the streets or something instead of wounds. But now, I mean, they did have floats, but now, you know, the Thanksgiving day parade, Macy's Thanksgiving parade starts in the twenties and that's a huge tradition. Um, what do you have to say about the day that Thanksgiving is celebrated? Because I think we have a nice segue into discussing the, the, how it becomes American in the late 19th century, but then I it's really solidified in under FTRs administration. And, and I think you, Speaker 1 00:50:34 So even going back to kind of pure it and kind of doing England celebrations, Thanksgiving days could not occur on Sundays. No we're kind of bonus. They were kind of bonus Sabbath days. Um, so there's already a definition that can occur on that. And, and pretty early on Thursday gets settled on and in the throes of the great depression, FDR actually moves Thanksgiving up one week. So instead of it being the fourth son, a fourth Thursday of the month of November, he moves it to the third because he wants it to spur retail sales. He wants to kind of in the midst of the great depression, give kind of retailers an extra week of Christmas shopping because traditionally by 19, I think he does it in 41 39. Does he? Oh, that's right. 39 is when he moves it in 41, he moves it back. 42, no 41. He signs it. Speaker 0 00:51:43 Maybe then the next year it becomes that effect it maybe. Yeah. So maybe that really puts us off football because they already had their schedules for the season. Right. Speaker 1 00:51:55 I mean, by 39, the Friday after Thanksgiving had become a fairly big deal for shopping. It was the kickoff for the Christmas shopping season and Speaker 0 00:52:07 Becomes really American. Right? Like when you start infusing capitalism and consumerism, it is now officially an American holiday, right? Speaker 1 00:52:17 Yeah. This has nothing to do with religion at this point. Speaker 0 00:52:20 Nothing. Yeah. Nothing to do with religion, religion, capitalism, really. Right. Speaker 1 00:52:25 Warren, does it have anything to do with celebrating friendship or imagined friendship between indigenous people and colonists it's it is about buying stuff and eating. What do you think about so black Friday becomes kind of this big thing you go out and you kind of go shopping and fight crowds and all this stuff. What do you think about the recent trend of places being open Thursday for shopping? Speaker 0 00:52:57 I mean, it's just insane to me because it totally violates the purpose of having days, right? Like why even have Thanksgiving anymore, if it's going, if you're going to force people to go to work. Cause that's what I find really disgusting about. It is like the people who have to go work at, you know, I don't know, best buy where you're busting down the doors to get a TV for $20 off. Like they want to eat with their families too, because the fact that it has turned into just about consumerism and it's not about thanks and it's not about family and it's not about any of that. That is really sad because there's, and it's classist because there's this expectation that like, well, you don't, you're not important enough to be able to celebrate this national holiday. You have to go to work. And I don't like it. Speaker 0 00:53:48 I mean, because then by that you could just keep pushing it back further and further and further. And there's an attempt to do this because I see Christmas stuff up in October, you know, like at stores, there's, there's this idea that we have to keep shopping sooner and sooner and sooner hallmark comes out with their yearly Christmas line in July. So we're constantly trying to push it. So that way we spend, spend, spend, spend, spend more. And I don't know, it really bugs me and I've never participated in black Friday because I would rather pay more than like punch someone in the face for 20% off, you know? It's insane. Speaker 1 00:54:32 Yeah. I mean, it's so I think you, you and I, as college professors, we are never going to be asked to work on Thanksgiving day Speaker 0 00:54:42 And that's a privilege. That's what I'm saying. Speaker 1 00:54:44 It is. Right. And I think that's the thing. So then we can like construct our Thanksgiving day, however we want. Whereas if you're kind of a retail minimum wage worker, you're really at the mercy of when you get put on a schedule and it used to be virtually, all stores were closed. Virtually all restaurants were closed, right? That this was a, this was a time where everybody nationwide could actually take the day off, stay at home, stay with family and friends and do this kind of communal dining thing. Right. Communal over food. I don't think it's about that anymore. Speaker 0 00:55:25 No, it's not about that anymore. But one thing I will say is I know people who they go out to eat on Thanksgiving and I think I'll be able to do that. I think it's awful though, right? I mean, you're asking somebody to come and serve you Thanksgiving dinner when they don't get to go have it with their family. But then I know people who are elderly, who they can't make dinner or they don't have family around, like it's complicated. And see there again goes back to the discussion of like everybody has their own motivations and circumstances. And it's complicated because I can have that conversation and acknowledge that, Hey, I think everybody should be able to have the day off and be able to spend it with their families, having a meal at home. I also understand maybe not everybody can afford to have a meal at their home, maybe going out to Cracker barrel and having the Thanksgiving meal is far more economical for some people than it is to get all the ingredients for their health, you know, but it, but I guess to get to your original question, it's like, no, it's really not about family and gathering and thanks anymore. Speaker 0 00:56:34 It's about like ushering in the consumer season of Christmas. It's kind of like the starting point of Christmas, Speaker 1 00:56:44 But this shift to consumerism is not a shift away from religion to consumerism, right? Thanksgiving is fundamentally the way it is celebrated in the United States from 1770 on 1777 on is law. Religion gets taken out very quickly and it is viewed as a secular holiday. And that's kind of, as it is formed into what we kind of idealized as the perfect Thanksgiving, it is a very secular holiday because it's meant to be something, anyone, no matter what their religion is, can participate in Speaker 0 00:57:20 Well, and it, can you participate in it to be American, right? It's almost July, Speaker 1 00:57:28 Right? Because I, I am a little disturbed when I see people trying to kind of re-imagine Thanksgiving is this deeply religious event. And it's like, well, no, it's just not just like, I, I, I want to inform people about the long history of Christmas when they argue about Christmases, this kind of deeply religious celebration. And I'm like, well kind of, but Oliver, Cromwells very religious in the English civil war in the aftermath. He Outlaws Christmas because he views it as simply a pagan celebration. Um, but I mean, maybe that's one reaction. People are having to the gross consumerism of Thanksgiving now is they want to, to say, well, no, it's religious. So we shouldn't do that. Whereas I think, you know, I think there's a, there's a, another truth to it, which is it's about community. Thanks for kind of whatever. Speaker 0 00:58:23 There's a lot of pushback though, to Thanksgiving that I'm hearing now that's related to like Columbus day, right? That a lot of people celebrate Thanksgiving by going to what's considered the original site. And it's a national day of mourning for some people because that feast that 16, 21 feast whether in reality or not to them marks this point. Cause it's obviously, there's not one point where European incursion becomes a problem. I mean, it's been since they came, right, but they will Mark this day, not as a day of thanks and gratitude and happiness, but as a day of mourning because it is so that idea of Thanksgiving as being this communal exciting gay we're friends moment has been damaging to their communities for decades. And so there are a lot of native communities who they say we're not celebrating Thanksgiving because we're not very thankful for what happened to our culture and our tribe and our tribes and our land and all of that. Speaker 0 00:59:28 Like we're not going to celebrate colonialism. We're not celebrating the incursion onto native land. We're not celebrating the underhandedness and we're not going to fall into this nationalistic mythology to make everybody else feel comfortable. That's a lot of the pushback I see right now. And it's connected to the Columbus state pushback, where people are looking back to the roots and saying, Hey, this is kind of a messed up thing. Um, and I find myself, you know, now with two kids, how do I talk to them about Thanksgiving has become on my it's on my mind now, what is Thanksgiving? How am I going to teach them about Thanksgiving? What are the important things I need to relay to them? Speaker 2 01:00:14 Just a, another shameless self-promotion if you want to hear more about our conversation about Columbus day, we do have an episode about Speaker 0 01:00:20 That. We do, Speaker 2 01:00:22 Um, I mean it's complicated, right? Because I think an easy answer is you just start with Lincoln and kind of move forward from there and kind of make an argument. All of the Pilgrim stuff is tacked on later, and there's a lot of problems with that. So maybe if you strip all of that out of there, but at the same time, I think if you strip the Pilgrim slant out of it, then you actually do lose the opportunity to talk about the treatment of people like the Wampanoags. Um, you know, when we're, and it ties into your whole thing about anxieties about if I go out to eat or if I go shopping, am I forcing someone else to give things up so I can be thankful? I think that's the thing is it's very much a thing of do I have the privilege to be thankful while other people have to give things up to allow that to happen for me and you know, the pilgrims, imagine it a certain way. And we can look back on that today and see if their, the way they imagine it's really flawed. Um, first they just fundamentally misunderstand the world they're in. But second, they really take advantage of a group of people who are very vulnerable at that moment. Speaker 0 01:01:32 Right. And only extending friendship out of desperation, right? Speaker 2 01:01:37 They are, they're basically trapped between larger groups. And then this, this group of English settlers who've landed and they kind of make a choice of who they want to ally with. Um, yeah. I, I mean, that's, I think that's an important question to think about and, you know, I know, um, it's interesting. I, I wonder what the conversations are going to be like around Thanksgiving tables and you know, this year Speaker 0 01:02:09 I hope people are not Speaker 2 01:02:12 Well, but I think they are. I think they're going to be, I mean, it's, I just, I don't see people as capable of containing themselves. Speaker 0 01:02:23 I judge them, I do to send me an email, Speaker 2 01:02:28 But I, you know, I think even if they do virtual gatherings or whatever, um, I wonder what those conversations are going to be like, because I think a lot of Americans in the midst of COVID-19, they, they wonder, is there anything really to be thankful for right now? Speaker 0 01:02:46 It's interesting to think about. Yeah. Well, real quick, before we wrap up, will there be a Turkey parting ceremony this year? Speaker 2 01:02:58 I feel like you're baiting me to say something very political. Um, Speaker 0 01:03:05 I know it's Turkey that wants to be part of this to discuss though our next, we wanted to have an episode. I don't know if it's going to be our next episode or not, but where we wanted to like have a little bit of a debate and discussion about worst presidents in history. Um, but I did. Yeah. I wanted to point out quickly though that the Turkey pardoning thing, that's, that's kind of a new thing. George H w Bush in 1989 is the first president to have an actual ceremony. Although, um, Kennedy I think sent the Turkey to like a wildlife thing and there've been other presidents, who've done something similar, but the ceremonial aspect of it is quite new. And that's the first one is in 1989. So I do wonder if there'll be a ceremony this year. Um, and again, great segue into discussing presidents for our next step <inaudible> and I did want to quickly tell everybody that only mailed turkeys, gobble. I really wanted. Yeah. I really wanted to let everyone know. Speaker 2 01:04:11 I should not do email turkeys or female turkeys Speaker 0 01:04:15 That I don't know. I, I would assume both, but maybe not that I don't, Speaker 2 01:04:21 I don't think so. Because chickens, we usually eat just chicken. It's not rooster. Yeah. We eat hands. Not roosters. Roosters are generally killed at birth Speaker 0 01:04:32 Because it's sad. Speaker 2 01:04:34 But like, but yeah, cause you only need so many roosters and roosters actually. Cause a lot of problems if you have multiple, Speaker 0 01:04:41 But yeah, well they're very noisy. What we eat typically, if we eat, Speaker 2 01:04:48 These are supposed to be really stupid. Hey, like if, if you, if it rains and turkeys outs are outside, that they will drown, but they'll like look up at the sky. Yeah. Speaker 0 01:05:01 They're like, I want to be in charge of my destiny. I don't want you killing me. I'll do this myself. How dare you Speaker 2 01:05:10 Anyway, I think we'll end it there. Um, thanks for joining us. This has been a fun conversation and hopefully it's made you think a little bit about Thanksgiving and why we celebrate it. And maybe some issues, maybe some, maybe some nonpolitical stuff to bring up. If you are in fact gathering with family or friends or, or hopefully just kind of zoom, zoom, giving Z with them or whatever we would call it. Speaker 0 01:05:35 So however you celebrate and if you do or you don't, I hope you do have a great next Thursday and we are very happy to be back, um, on a weekly schedule. But obviously next Thursday, we won't be doing an episode, but maybe we'll do it Wednesday. Uh, but we do join us next week for our next episode of an incomplete history. Speaker 2 01:05:56 All right. Until next time I'm Jeff Speaker 0 01:05:58 And I'm Hillary <inaudible>.