Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 So, uh, 2021 is here.
Speaker 1 00:00:05 We thought we would be maybe getting a break, but our one week trial subscription is up. And I would like to unsubscribe,
Speaker 0 00:00:14 There's a funny meme going around of a woman in front of like those days since an incident where she had six, zero, um,
Speaker 1 00:00:25 Chunks, the bottle of wine.
Speaker 0 00:00:27 Well, it's January 7th, 2021. And, uh, yeah. Um, maybe one of the most important moments in us history happened yesterday. I mean, we won't know for sure for quite a while, whether it ends up being one, but in my opinion, I know at Hillary's opinion and many other stories, opinions, it's going to be hard to top it as far as what are the 10, most pivotal moments in history for the United States. And
Speaker 1 00:00:54 For me it felt like a nine 11.
Speaker 0 00:00:57 Yeah. I mean, we're going to talk about today. We're going to today, we're going to talk about kind of what happened yesterday, but we're also going to kind of give some historical perspective about kind of regulator movements, insurrections seditions riots, all of this kind of in what the U S his history has been with that in the past. But, um, you know, it's, I have never had so many requests from listers to like directly address something so quickly. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:01:25 I texted quite a bit yesterday with this class. And so I do want to say we are reeling from this just like everybody else. And we're not prepared. I mean, when we were supposed to do childhood in America today, right. Jeff texted me yesterday. Afternoon's like, I think we need to do something else. And I agree, but I mean, just so listeners are aware, we are reeling from this. We are traumatized and we are unpacking it, you know, less than 24 hours out from the incident, but we do think it's very important to address and particularly Oracle context.
Speaker 0 00:01:59 Yeah. I think it's, it's critical right now. So, uh, let's get right into it then welcome to an incomplete history. I'm Hillary and I'm Jeff. And we're your hosts for this week?
Speaker 2 00:02:11 <inaudible>.
Speaker 0 00:02:32 So before we get into the thick of this, let's start off on our traditional light note. Uh, how's the weather and, um,
Speaker 1 00:02:38 Really gloomy and it's raining really hard off and on, and it feels very fitting for today.
Speaker 0 00:02:50 Well, it is absolutely gorgeous today. It is. It is one of the reasons I live in Southern California because
Speaker 1 00:02:57 San Diego not to read the, read the room, San Diego,
Speaker 0 00:03:03 Um, it is sunny. Um, it is the high sixties. There's a couple of wispy clouds in the sky. Um, no big fires going on near me right now. No big mudslides, nothing. I mean, it's, it is very pretty today. Um, I mean, I think Hillary and I are getting a very different end point. We see the current events going on. I I'm curious to see whether that really plays out or not, but like, I mean, let's talk about what happened first. So let's give kind of, as a story is what we always like to do first is just give a narrative of what happened and say, this happened, then this happened, and this happened before we start trying to figure out, you know, what, what it means and everything. So if you were writing the history of January six, 20, 21, um, right at the beginning of your monograph, what would you start out at? What point would you start with
Speaker 1 00:04:04 That is such a good question, because I'm like, Oh my gosh, is he going to throw this to me? And where do I start?
Speaker 0 00:04:12 I think,
Speaker 1 00:04:14 Figure out what happened yesterday. There's like a brief way to go about it. And to say, the election happened on November 3rd, 2019, Joe Biden won the election, right? Like, and you can go forward from there. But to me, this has seemed to be brewing for five plus years, um, in this way. Um, but, uh, but also, I mean, we talk so much in this, on this podcast about history and about, you know, context and all that. And like, to me, it just seems like almost a natural progression to so many of the things that we've discussed. Um, but to, to discuss what happened yesterday at the us Capitol, when, um, domestic terrorists stormed into the building, uh, looted, rioted, vandalized, um, terrorized members of both houses, I would say the best way to start it is, is to talk about just the election and what yesterday was supposed to be, which is just this mundane, um, certification of the votes, which it just, it's never a big deal. I've never remembered thinking about this day as a big deal. Even when Gore conceded in lost in 2000, he just went in and he had to preside over it as the vice president. Right. And it was just like, yep, let's move along. And it's supposed to be about a 30 minute event. So I think starting in November, is that, what would you know, do I mean, cause I don't know. Where would you say
Speaker 0 00:05:39 I would. I mean, if I was going to teach a class, like say I was going to give a special lecture on this, like an open lecture to the public, um, I would start with the rally that was held yesterday morning.
Speaker 1 00:05:54 Okay. So you would go like, let's just talk about today. That day.
Speaker 0 00:05:59 What I would talk about is I would talk about that rally and how, and I was keeping an eye on it cause I was teaching at the same time. So I had two computers open and I had my teaching stuff on one and I had like, C-SPAN on the other. And I was watching stuff as stuff started to come on hinge, but this rally that took place yesterday and you know what I mean? It's, we're probably going to lose some blisters over this and, and you know what, I don't want Nazis listening to us anyway. Um, this was fascism on full display. So Trump, Rudy Giuliani, all these people that got up and spoke yesterday, every one of them tried to outdo the other with the ridiculous things they said. I mean, at one point, Rudy Giuliani is up there saying trial by combat
Speaker 1 00:06:47 Wasn't that, Oh, I was very nervous about this day.
Speaker 0 00:06:52 I, I was worried about what was going to happen. Yeah. And kind of the naive part of me hoped that Trump would kind of play to his audience. But at the same time, discourage them from doing anything else I should have known better.
Speaker 1 00:07:09 Well, the thing is here's what happened is that all of these people were invited to come into quote, be wild. Right? This was tweeted by the president. Remember late December, come ready to go be wild. Uh, you know, before he says, proud boys, stand back, stand by. Right. So he invites all these people at capital and he's got to put a show on for him. I mean, that's, that's what it felt like yesterday. He's like, Oh God, they all showed up. I guess we got to make it, make it good and make it watchable because he's like he at the core and heart of who he is, he's a reality TV show person and a fascist.
Speaker 0 00:07:47 So, so I mean that, that happens. And then he tells them to make the walk to the Capitol building. And what do they do? They make the walk to the Capitol building.
Speaker 1 00:07:58 He was going to go with them. And then he didn't
Speaker 0 00:08:01 Because he's a chicken shit. If I can use a French word there,
Speaker 1 00:08:05 It was probably not in the best of shape to walk that distance.
Speaker 0 00:08:08 Um, I mean, so they moved there and we're still kind of trying to figure out exactly when the barricades come down, what happens, but they storm the Capitol and I'm also tired of people showing the initial moment. They get through the doors where there's still a few of them filtering down the hallway. You need to couch that view that it wasn't that scary for the people in the calc building with some of the pictures, people actually in the Capitol building were taking,
Speaker 1 00:08:37 You don't know about the barricade. So what I saw and so a lot of this is going to be like, what did you see? What did I see? I was watching MSNBC live. And what I saw was Capitol police go up to a metal barricade, you know, like those little, like, you're not like really from strong, but there was a metal barricade up. They walked up to it in their full gear and they just opened it and they just started walking past them. So it's like, I mean, that's what I saw.
Speaker 0 00:09:07 So sometimes I know what law enforcement does with. I mean, we're going to have a whole other discussion about if this had been black lives matters, protesters, we would have been a blood bath yesterday.
Speaker 1 00:09:17 We've seen what happens when black lives matter. You, you remember those images just from a few months ago of people stacked on the steps of the Capitol in full riot gear waiting. So I'm sorry. Go ahead with the, the barricades.
Speaker 0 00:09:34 So I, uh, one technique I think police use to manage protestors is they will let them continue protest in a certain way. Harvey's very anxious about this today too. Um, that they'll let them, they'll like open barricades or something to let them go a specific direction. Hoping, hoping it diffuses the situation. And I've heard this argument already
Speaker 1 00:09:58 Not,
Speaker 0 00:10:01 But I've heard this argument already. Like, um, that one of the reasons they let them just kind of do what they did is they didn't want to first make martyrs in the group, which might be a good point, but also that they didn't want to up the violence because at the end of the day, we don't know how many of those writers, those insurrectionists, we don't know how many of them had firearms with them.
Speaker 1 00:10:28 So all the more reason. So here to me, it's like, I've seen this coming for weeks and I've been saying this to you. I'm really nervous about January six. I've been saying it to my husband. I'm really nervous about it. Why weren't they more prepared for this? Why wasn't the national guard there in the first place? Why was, where was DC police what's happening here? I mean, I've seen several videos where, or I'm seeing it live to where, you know, there is one guy against, you know, the horror and so what is that one person's supposed to do? And at that point I'm like, I feel bad for that person, but they let it get to this point, right. Preparation that could have been done and wasn't
Speaker 0 00:11:11 Right. But I mean to continue the narrative like, so they, they breached the Capitol and both chambers are kind of locked and they kind of are moving senators and Congress, uh, members of Congress to safe locations. Um, I heard an interview with Senator Tammy Duckworth and she's a disabled veteran and she has to use a wheelchair to get around. And she was talking about kind of, she had to kind of be lifted up and carried around. And we know that at this point, some members of Congress were calling family members and saying goodbye to them, which to me reminded me of nine 11, right?
Speaker 1 00:11:50 Yes, definitely. There's a level of terror and fear.
Speaker 0 00:11:55 If like some of them posted on social media, this was a revolution. They felt they were taking part in. Where were they going to stop? Were they going to summarily execute kind of these people they've viewed as traders in Congress. Um, and she showed
Speaker 1 00:12:13 Up with zip ties.
Speaker 0 00:12:16 That's the that's that photo just is chilling. The guy who's dressed in full military stuff with a whole bundle of zip ties. They clearly were in 10 aren't giving hostages
Speaker 1 00:12:31 Out, out front. I mean, this was not a protest,
Speaker 0 00:12:37 Right? This was a serious attempt to violently overthrow the government of the United States of America, full stop period. Anybody who engaged in this activity or fomented, it is culpable. And as a trader, would you agree? Gosh,
Speaker 1 00:13:00 A hundred times over
Speaker 0 00:13:02 And we know where it starts. We know who is at the head. The head of this Hydra is Donald J. Trump and history will not judge him kindly at all. I think, no. I mean,
Speaker 1 00:13:17 Even right now, I'm seeing, so I've seen a lot of people, you know, on social media who are still, still sticking to it. But now I'm seeing a lot of people come over and go, okay, this is nuts. And even some like high members of our government who have been shitheads for the last four years even said, Whoa,
Speaker 0 00:13:40 And we'll, and we'll get to that. But that's Donald Trump. Yes. Right. But, but alongside kind of that initial, that, that event, and then the movement of the Capitol and appreciate the capital. I think also alongside it, you need to pin, you need to place that letter, that Mike Pence released yesterday morning,
Speaker 1 00:14:05 Where yeah. Where he says, you're asking me to do something I cannot do.
Speaker 0 00:14:09 Right. Where he says, I'm not going to do this. That this is not what the constitution allows me to do. And I think those two things combined first, it put a huge target on Mike Pence's back. I mean, the stuff that Trump said about Pence can definitely be read as get this guy and bring his head to me.
Speaker 1 00:14:28 Yeah. I mean, he was very upset to be told. No. Right. And especially because he had already invited all of his, you know, people to come and then he got told on the morning of his big show, no. And riled everybody up more. He wanted to rile everybody up more him, his kids, Rudy Giuliani, Holly. Right. They're all culpable here in inciting a riot.
Speaker 0 00:14:55 And, and this isn't, I think what we need to also stop doing is viewing Trump as a petulant child, because I think that diminishes the danger of what he does. He is a dictator want to be in the vein of Vladimir Putin in the vein of Shujing ping in the ma in the vein of Vladimir, uh, of, uh, of Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, he
Speaker 1 00:15:23 Dictator want to be right. And
Speaker 0 00:15:29 This was his moment to overthrow the government. And I do want to clarify kind of to Lister is what actually was, it was not a COO tactically. So a COO would have been the military involved in this. The military was not involved in this. This is a push. Um, I would call it, although we can argue semantics, but it was the moment where I think he thought things would change. And, you know, we could have a whole series of episodes about why he so desperate at this point, but it's, you know, I'm glad that media is calling it, what it was. Um, I'm glad the New York times, like unequivocally said what it was. Um, but this wasn't instruction, this was an attempt to violently subvert, the will of the people and overthrow the duly elected government of the United States of America. And to stop the government from functioning, to remove from power people who were in disagreement with the protestors and to kind of install people who were friendly to them and to carry out the will of their great leader, Donald J. Trump. I mean, it's, what did you think? The moment where they pulled down the American flag over there, the chambers and started to hoist up the Trump flag.
Speaker 1 00:16:47 So there were a couple moments with flags yesterday that were alarming to me. I would say that was one of the most alarming and I thought was not the most.
Speaker 0 00:16:55 I thought that was the second most
Speaker 1 00:16:58 Confederate, no, the Confederate flag coming into the Capitol, because what listeners need to know, if you already don't know already is that the Confederacy never even breached the Capitol that this happened was during the war of 18, 12 and the British,
Speaker 0 00:17:17 When the British sacked Washington DC. Right?
Speaker 1 00:17:19 Right. So to see a Confederate flag in the United States Capitol is being taken over, I guess it took them 150 years. But even if you talk to people in the South, which I have to do every day, um, they will say to you, I have heard people say this to me. Like we never surrendered Leni surrendered. We never did. That is a, it's a really ingrained sense of loss, but also still in battle where they very much feel like the civil war is not over yet generally surrendered. The people never did. I've heard that in a classroom.
Speaker 0 00:18:02 I know. I, listen, I grew up in the South. I was taught. It was about state's rights of the federal government. You served. It was the war of Northern aggression. The North was trying to mandate its view on how the government should be Ryan. And they were trying to expand the federal government. Um, you know, if any group was trying to expand the ability of the federal government to intervene in state affairs, it was the South. Um, you know, we can have whole conversations about that, but you know, it's, so the writers breached the chambers, um, and everybody's kind of wondering, is, are the national guard going to show up at any point, like when are more police gonna show up? And it turns out it's Mike Pence who actually authorizes DC national guard,
Speaker 1 00:18:54 The president of the United States ignores it. And the vice president has to come in and do this. This to me was also an indication of 25th amendment. Now the vice-president had to take over this operation.
Speaker 0 00:19:09 Yeah. Well, I mean, it's so let's, I mean, God, there's just so much to unpack here. Um, a couple of people this morning texted me and they were like, could you talk about the 25th amendment? So I think let's talk really quickly about it. 25th amendment was put into place after kind of two events happened. Uh, the first event was, uh, Dwight Eisenhower had a series of heart attacks. Um, and there wasn't a real clear kind of how would an incapacitated president, what, how would that happen? Exactly? What would you do? Um, and the second was JFK's assassination. So the 25th amendments put in place, and it was a way for the vice-president in, with support or at the behest of a majority of basically what becomes senior cabinet officials to remove a president from power when their view, where they're deemed unfit or incapable of carrying out their responsibility.
Speaker 1 00:20:10 Right. And I mean, so there's four sections to it, right?
Speaker 0 00:20:14 Yeah. It has to go to right. And it's just, it's not just about Pence and a majority of cabinet members would have to do this. Then it goes to Congress and Congress has a certain amount of time to consider it. So it's not like it's not like a movie might display it where it's like the 25th amendment, they immediately removed the president. No, it's a little bit lengthier process than that.
Speaker 1 00:20:35 It is a lengthy process, but it is if there was, if you look at section one of it, it's like in the case of the removal of the president from office or his death or resignation, the president shall become president. Boom. Okay. No, no brainer. If the president dies, the vice-president steps in, and like you said, that's directly relevant to JFK. Um, but at the time though, you get down to section four, I mean, it's basically, it's a much larger explanation. And it's basically stating that in the case of an emergency where the president is unfit, mentally unfit, like this is a full blown emergency. We don't have time to do this, this gigantic process, even though there is a process we've never used it before, but wouldn't, this seem like exactly why it was written. So scenario,
Speaker 0 00:21:27 I know David from wrote an op ed last night, David traumas, uh, uh, conservative, um, kind of commentator. Uh, I disagree with him on a lot of things, but you know, over the last four years, I've really agreed with many things he's written. Um, he actually begged cabinet members in Pence to Institute two 22 to use the 25th amendment last night. And this was now what's interesting is he puts that out before Congress resumed its joint session. So, you know, what's going on in Congress while these riots are happening. It's the joint session to kind of certify electoral votes. So they get through, um, to Arizona and Arizona gets challenged by Ted Cruz and, uh, well by some congressmen and Ted Cruz, and because it had a Senate support, they had to split for two hours and debate it. So they moved to do that.
Speaker 0 00:22:29 And then this is when kind of the whole process gets shut down. What's interesting though is pretty early on. Once Congress had kind of had to go into emergency recess Polosi and Mitch McConnell from the house and the Senate there's people were already putting out, they were going to resume. As soon as the Capitol was secured, they would get back together to complete this process. And I was hoping that would happen. I was really worried. I was like, what if we get to the end of the night? And they haven't been able to do this?
Speaker 1 00:23:06 I was worried they weren't going to be able to properly secure the Capitol complex.
Speaker 0 00:23:11 Um, I was worried, we know there were pipe bombs, theoretically floating around and things. I was worried, some of these people had planted pipe bombs that they wouldn't find, um, this could have gone even worse than it did. Um, but I mean, what's interesting is, you know, Pence authorizes the use of the national guard and the national guard comes in and they start summarily kind of removing people from the Capitol, very gingerly, very with white gloves,
Speaker 1 00:23:46 I saw footage of them like walking a woman down the steps, holding her very carefully, letting her come down the steps, escorting her off very gently.
Speaker 0 00:23:59 Yeah. Well, although at the same time, there's this whole another hilarious meme going around about one protester from Tennessee, who she was horrified that she got maced and she was like crying that she got maced and the reporter asked her, well, what were you doing there? Oh, it was a revolution. And it's just like, well, what did you think was going to like, did you think they were just going to let you do that? Like,
Speaker 1 00:24:25 Well, here's a really strong distinction that we need to make a revolution as a successful rebellion.
Speaker 0 00:24:31 Yeah. Not successful rebellion. I would even say this rebellion, which is why I don't like to use the word rebellion with what the South does in 1860, 61 rebellion implies there's some legitimate grievance I think.
Speaker 1 00:24:57 And I mean, I think that it certainly can. I mean, so what would you prefer like insurrection
Speaker 0 00:25:05 Guess we shouldn't
Speaker 1 00:25:06 Use these terms interchangeably, but I mean, what, what happened in the United States, how the United States became a country? It was, it was a rebellion that rebellion and turned into a revolution. So that's why, that's why I want to make that
Speaker 0 00:25:21 Right. So let's, let's kind of go on our way back machine back to the early or mid 18th century, um, in the Carolinas, um, right after, you know, the seven years were, or the French and Indian war, depending on where you learned about it. First happens, there is a movement in the Carolinas called the regulator movement and it's a group of people and they're mostly from, um, the interior of the Carolinas. So these are not wealthy plantation owners. These are small scale farmers, more recent immigrants. Um, these are not people who own a large number of slaves. This is, this is in many ways, this is a group, very similar to some of the people who stormed the capital yesterday, economically. Is that a fair statement?
Speaker 1 00:26:20 Good way to put it economically, but also regionally, right.
Speaker 0 00:26:23 Regionally, right? I mean, it's rural, it's a rural place. It's a place that and go back and listen to our episode about, uh, the whiskey rebellion and Shay's rebellion because I think it is a group of people who feel that they are, they are not being listened to and they're actually being taken advantage of. And their assertion is basically that colonial in the area. These are English, colonial officials are unfairly taxing them in their empire and posing a fee system. That's not the same as what's being used on other people. And,
Speaker 3 00:26:55 And they feel
Speaker 0 00:26:59 They have the right to kind of
Speaker 3 00:27:02 Change that,
Speaker 0 00:27:03 Um, via this regulator movement. Now what's interesting is for years, historians have debated is the regulator movement or the war of regulation. And the Carolinas that goes on from about 1765 to 1770 1771. Is that, um, is that a precursor to the American revolution? Uh,
Speaker 3 00:27:31 I don't think so.
Speaker 0 00:27:31 It really is because I think it's something very different. Um, but well, it's not people trying to create their own government. Right. Um, but it is, it is a popular uprising. Right. Um, so what you think is dangerous though, is to even suggest that this is similar to what happened yesterday? Well, I don't think it is, but what I, what I want to do is walk through previous moments where there seems to be something that might have some similarity on some level and talk about maybe how they're route really similar, but also what happens actually. Um, so there are actually a couple of violent confrontations that happened between these regulators can crown forces. Um, but at the end of the day,
Speaker 3 00:28:25 It fails
Speaker 0 00:28:26 The regulator movement fails. Um, and,
Speaker 3 00:28:30 And most of the
Speaker 0 00:28:34 People involved in it, um, actually aren't really punished very deeply. Um, that being said, I would also add a distinction that there is a little difference to South Carolina because, um, South Carolina, it does have a little more of an elite flavor to it, but I mean, we get this regulator movement. So there is this idea,
Speaker 3 00:28:58 A
Speaker 0 00:29:01 Even during the colonial period, that when things are bad, the public has a right to rise up and rebel against, or I don't want to use the word rebel rise up and challenge it. Um, but that's not what happened yesterday. That's not what happened yesterday, right? This wasn't about rising up and saying, there's a wrong to be righted, right? This, this, you know, this wasn't about them saying this needs to be fixed. This was about them subverting, a popular election, which is very different. Um, I mean, it's funny. Uh, did you stay up and watch the whole thing last night once Congress was back in session? You know, I didn't, I had some, I did.
Speaker 1 00:29:51 I felt,
Speaker 0 00:29:53 I felt that as an historian, it was important for me to do that. Um, cause I wanted to see this through to the end. I wanted to, to make sure I saw that it actually happened. Um, Congress got back into session last night, about 8:00 PM a little after Eastern time. Um, and they kind of moved pretty quickly. Mitch McConnell actually delivered a scathing rebuke of the insurrectionist. I mean, he called them insurrectionists. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:30:23 I listened to that. Not live, but I did
Speaker 0 00:30:27 Thugs as well, which was shocking because people from Mitch McConnell's part of the political spectrum, tend to reserve the use of the word thug for people of a certain ethnic background.
Speaker 3 00:30:45 True.
Speaker 1 00:30:47 Yeah. I mean, definitely we've seen that time and time again. So I did interesting for him.
Speaker 0 00:30:53 It's very surprised that he used that word to, to talk about an overwhelmingly white group. Um, I can't say it was 100% white, but it was very white. Um, and you know, he says he made it pretty clear. He said, you know, we're going to move forward with this and it's going to happen and we're going to finish it tonight. And I was like, okay, well, if you've got Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell both on board with this, then it is going to happen tonight. Although, you know, how long it would take was another thing. Because every time there's a challenge that was supported by Senator, there was going to have to be a two hour break. Um, and many senators, not many the senators who had said they previously, they would support some of these challenges in battleground States, um, withdrew their support. Um, why did they do that though? Well, here
Speaker 1 00:31:55 A change of heart or where they just sleepy and wanted
Speaker 0 00:31:57 To go home. Uh, I, okay. So here's where it gets a little gross. I think a lot of what happened last night was political calculus. Um, some people, the political calculus actually helped prop up the constitutional system to make sure it didn't collapse completely others doubled down on it. Um, I, I think Ted Cruz and this guy, Holly from Missouri are two of the worst human beings in the United States.
Speaker 1 00:32:34 They should be ousted and there's a precedent historical precedent for ousting people from, and that needs to happen. I mean, we can talk about that later of what we think next steps here are. And I know that we probably differ on it, but I mean, it's just, they incited this riot and I didn't see, um, the, the, I think I'm almost thinking that there might've been an actual fight, but we couldn't see it because of the C-SPAN cameras. But there was, there was a guy from Pennsylvania was talking, they cleared the bases on both sides, but we couldn't actually see what was happening. It wouldn't surprise me if there was like a punch thrown in Congress,
Speaker 0 00:33:15 But, uh, you know, but they get through it. They, they had to, um, break to talk about Pennsylvania Senate. It's interesting. The Senate took care of that very quickly. It took a while in the house. Um, they came back together, certified that, and once, once Pennsylvania was done, it finished very, very quickly. Um, Joe Biden became, officially became the president elected the United States of America, the person who will, whether Donald Trump and his people like it or not will become president of the United States on January 20th period. And it doesn't even matter if Donald Trump were to do something like try to Institute martial law. Joe Biden will be president.
Speaker 1 00:34:05 Yes. Yes. And I like that. You were so like, you calm me down a lot of times, but the thing that worries me about this, it's like, okay, yeah, it's been certified, but what is to stop more tomfoolery like this from happening? You know? I mean, I just don't see these folks just going away. Oh, Biden's president. Okay. Bye. Well, as soon as he gets his Twitter back, it's over.
Speaker 0 00:34:33 Well, so I mean, this, this ties into kind of the whiskey rebellion and Shay's rebellion, right. Is, is that, that both of those come out of people who had participated in a rebellion that turned into a revolution against the British government, a group, they viewed as an oppressive regime that didn't care about their rights. Um, they were unwilling, they felt they had a right to continue that resistance. Right? If they end the future felt that they were being victimized by an unresponsive government. Um, and, and again, this is not to say the people yesterday are like those people, but what it is to say is you just can't turn these things on and off, you know, the flip of a switch, um, van Jones yesterday said something very interesting. You know, he said, I wonder, is this kind of the end of something ugly? Or is this a beginning of something ugly? Um,
Speaker 1 00:35:33 I think we're in the midst of something ugly. Cause something ugly has been coming. Right.
Speaker 0 00:35:38 Well, it's, I think Trump's words this morning or w or whatever Trump has indicated. He hasn't had words, but he's evidently now committed to a peaceful transfer of power. Um, I think at the end of the day, these people are very cowardly. Um,
Speaker 1 00:36:05 Well, when they actually got into the building, I found it really interesting. The thing we're walking between the, um, like the, what is it like the aisles, like how, you know, they make the islands with like the poles with a little sash, like all out Disneyland. Like they were like going in and they had like cameras and they were like staining within those bounds. I thought that was fascinating. I was just like, it's like, you almost don't know what to do.
Speaker 0 00:36:33 Right. But then at the same time you had the guy who stole the podium.
Speaker 1 00:36:37 Yeah. Hang on a, from the sides and they're special. I'm not downplaying it, but it was almost as if they didn't even know what to do once they got inside. Like they were actually, thank God. They were so poorly organized. They're idiots. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:36:53 This is the thing. This is what's chilling to me. Thank God. The person who fomented this Trump is an idiot. Thank God. The people who followed him were idiots, because if any of them were smart, there would be a very different situation today.
Speaker 1 00:37:13 Well, if they had the ability to plan too, because really, I mean, I loved her Anderson Cooper said like, Oh, they're going to go to olive garden and the holiday Inn express and talk. But like, they didn't really have a plan and they don't have a platform. So that's the whole thing too. Like, you know, when you look at protests or like having an it, like, they don't have a pro, they don't have a platform. They just want, they just want Donald Trump to remain the president, even though he was voted out, that's it. And they don't have a real plan for doing that or make it
Speaker 0 00:37:43 Right. And so that, that right there is a good point. That kind of brings up why this is not like previous movements in the United States. So the regulator movement, they wanted fair application of fees and taxes, the whiskey rebellion and Shay's rebellion. They wanted land reform. They wanted relief for mortgages that were being held by our loans that were being held by coastal elites. They wanted back pay. That was a, the right. They, they wanted clear concrete things. Even if we go back to one of the most famous kind of riot events. And it's interesting, we call it a riot. I mean, I guess it is, uh, the French bread riot. Um, this is the woman's riot. Right. And I know you wanted to talk about that.
Speaker 1 00:38:27 Well, it's not French. It happens in Richmond.
Speaker 0 00:38:30 Well, Richmond. Oh, that's Oh, you're doing the Richmond. Well, let me talk about the one in France in 89, um, 1789 women March on Versailles. Um, it is one of the most important moments in the French revolution. And in many ways it kicks off the French revolution into kind of it's very visible kind of moment. Um, but it was organized by women who could not afford to buy bread. The price of bread has skyrocketed and bread was the main staple of the peasant diet and France at the time. And they marched to Versailles and they demanded reform because of these ridiculously high prices on bread. Um, again, it's a very concrete thing they wanted. Uh, there had been another one that had happened previously at the beginning of the 18th century in Boston. Again, it was in response to food shortages and high bread prices. Um, but it's interesting. It's political historians make a joke about this, that, that I think is not far from the truth. Whence once women are writing about food, shit's getting in rail.
Speaker 1 00:39:53 Yeah. Because it's a, it's a foundational staple, right? I mean, it's like the very bottom of the pyramid. People don't have food and mothers can't feed their children. It's done it's
Speaker 0 00:40:03 Over. So what happens in Richmond?
Speaker 1 00:40:06 So in Richmond, the bread riots happened during the civil war. And this it's a fairly similar situation where, uh, as in France where people were just out of food, they have nothing. And the women start taking to the streets. Um, they marched to the governor's mansion because they want, they demanding to speak to him. He kind of rebuffs them. Um, and they take to the streets and start busting down windows and breaking into stores and stealing food. Um, there are a lot of hundreds of people are arrested because it becomes, that's the thing with a riot, right? It's like, you may have just a few people at first and then they see, Oh, it's going well. And then, you know, you just have people flooding the streets and they're stealing food, all kinds of food from these, from these different sources because they're starving. Um, and this is because the Confederate government has no means of supporting the people, its constituents.
Speaker 1 00:41:00 Um, this happens in the Confederate Capitol. Um, Jefferson Davis goes out into the streets in the midst of it and is throwing coins at people, um, which is just so Marie Antoinette ish, right? I mean, he goes out and just starts throwing coins that this is all I have. This is all I have. Um, and people end up jailed for this. And I've seen a lot of the prison records and the jail registers of people coming in badly hurt, um, broken bones, lacerations. Um, and, and they were arrested for stealing food because they were starving in the midst of the civil war. Yeah. I mean, it's good reason why it, I mean,
Speaker 0 00:41:45 And that's the thing is I hate that we call it a riot because I think there's a distinction here because I think riot delegitimizes something. And I think these women have a legitimate thing. And I think, I think when you apply the term, right, you are de-legitimizing something,
Speaker 1 00:42:00 Well, you're automatically making it negative. Right. It has a negative connotation. Right. Instead of say there's a protest or something. Yeah. Well, I will say though, in terms of historical parallel, I think based on my small amount of time to prepare for this or to think about it, one of the things that came to my mind first when thinking, is there even a parallel for this happening? No, there's not, but there was one coup in us history that was successful and it takes place in 1898 and the Wilmington insurrection was that, would you agree that that was something that may being along these lines?
Speaker 0 00:42:49 Um, yeah. Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1 00:42:53 It has the intersections right. Of race and, and it's, there's, this insurrection is just white vigilantes who go into Wilmington. Should I give a background?
Speaker 0 00:43:03 Yeah, definitely. Okay. So
Speaker 1 00:43:05 November, 1898, you have over 2000 armed white nationalists who take to the streets in Wilmington, North Carolina. Um, they were egged on by politicians and by businessmen, um, you know, who were riling them up because in Wilmington, North Carolina, at this time, there was a interracial government, there were a lot of elected black leaders. Um, and so this mob goes into Wilmington and just goes into completely dismantle the government because they are upset that there are black leaders and that there's black leadership. Um, the mob riders insurrectionist, um, they burn a prominent African newspaper. Um, there were anywhere between 60 to 250 black citizens who were gunned down in the streets. This is something that's not really covered. I mean, I never learned about this in elementary school, but this is a white supremacy coup and insurrection that was successful because it dismantles the government, this interracial government. Um, and then it leads to the supremacy of white leaders in that region for more than a hundred years. I mean, it's, it's a, um, coup and it was very much motivated by race and, um, by white supremacy. So to me, that's the similarity that I see between the two, uh, the two incidents is that at its core, it's a white supremacists, uh, undertaking.
Speaker 0 00:44:53 Yeah. I, I think that's a useful kind of definition. I want to read really quickly. Um, us code, um, section 2383, this is a title 18, uh, it's on a rebellion or insurrection, uh, whoever insights sets on foot assist or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States of the laws thereof, or gives eight or comfort there too, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 10 years or both, and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States. Um,
Speaker 3 00:45:30 Mm.
Speaker 0 00:45:31 Looking towards what is going to happen as a result of what happened yesterday at the Capitol. I think we can look back at not even the distant history, but the relatively recent history in the United States to see that the United States does prosecute people under sedition, conspiracy and treason loss, uh, March, 2010, you had an, a militia that was charged. Um, although, um, a us district judge kind of summarily dismiss those, but there was an initial kind of bringing forward to those charges. Uh, there were, uh, 10 people, uh, including Omar Abdel Rahman, uh, 1995 can get a serious, a seditious conspiracy. Um, this happens, this has to do with the original attack on the twin towers in New York city, 87, you had a group of white conspiracy, a white supremacist, uh, were indicted on seditious conspiracy. Um, I mean, this happens periodically and I think something that's important to note alongside this, if you were military, if you're active duty duty military, and you were there yesterday, or you are reserve or anything like that, article 94 of the uniform code of military justice sedition is a punishable offense.
Speaker 1 00:46:56 It is, and you are violating the oath that you took to protect and defend the United States of America against all enemies foreign and domestic.
Speaker 0 00:47:04 Right. Um, so here's the thing. So we've already established that, thankfully, these people who stormed the capital yesterday were incompetent idiots, um, because they also left their fingerprints all over social media.
Speaker 3 00:47:24 I mean, I love seeing them.
Speaker 1 00:47:26 So what worries me? We, we wanted to have another episode about conspiracies and I think that we have to, because they're cropping up and I've seen posts from parlor. I don't have a parlor account, but I've been, you know, looking at the people who go and find this, these, uh, heroes who go screenshot this stuff. But there's already a narrative that the people who went into the Capitol yesterday and storm, the Capitol river were Antifa and that they were paid actors and that they were staged, but we can see these people's faces and their alongs there they're bragging about what they did.
Speaker 0 00:48:05 Right. We know this isn't true, but I mean, Matt Gates from Florida set it on the house floor last night.
Speaker 1 00:48:12 How do we combat it though? What did he say?
Speaker 0 00:48:15 He said that, that he had heard that there were Antifa members disguised as Patriots who had kind of fomented this, um, the truth to this is though is that many of these people, so boldly posted pictures of themselves, it's easy to do image searches and find that these people are involved in other white supremacist activities. So there's this guy who's kind of wearing red face and dressed in a Buffalo hat and stuff. Um, he is this kind of far right? Nut job. Um, there's a guy who was dear him and they said, Oh, this guy is from Antifa. Cause it's on this Antifa website. Um, yeah, it was on TIF, a website that was posting pictures of known Nazis. So yes, he was on an Antifa website, but as a Nazi, um, I think this is the thing I think the media, honestly, for the most part with a couple of notable exceptions really stepped up yesterday. And if they've had it, I think they just started calling this out for whatever it is. Um, but I mean, fortunately they were so idiotic, they kind of left their fingerprints all over social media. Um, it's going to be fairly easy to find to out who these people are, um, where they live, all of these things, what happens next?
Speaker 0 00:49:45 Well,
Speaker 1 00:49:48 I've seen calls from the FBI to start identifying these individuals and to go after them. I think that there will be a wide-scale domestic terror investigation that takes place, um, to bring these terrorists to justice. I think they have to go for the, their leader. And I think that the, that the 25th amendment must be invoked. I don't think that another, a single day more of Donald Trump in office can be tolerated for saving face for the rest of the world.
Speaker 0 00:50:24 Right. Well, I
Speaker 1 00:50:28 Don't, I don't know if it will happen. I mean, it seems to me, it seems like if there's ever a time, I mean, Facebook has permanently banned Donald Trump's account. He is banned on Twitter. I think it was a 12 hour ban at, you might even be up at this point,
Speaker 0 00:50:42 January 20th. He will. He becomes permanent band basically on all those platforms,
Speaker 1 00:50:47 PERMA band. I hope so. That's how he spreads his hate. That's the whole thing, right? So people like, Oh, it's a free speech thing. It's like, you don't have free speech on a private company's platform. It's their, it's their choice. What you can or can't say on the platform, you just don't have to use the platform. And the other thing about free speech, you aren't allowed free speech up into a certain point CR free speech episode, right? You are not allowed to yell fire in a crowded movie theater and you are not allowed to say trial by combat storm, the U S Capitol either. It's,
Speaker 0 00:51:23 That's the thing. Even though most of the people at that rally who were speaking, didn't participate in the storming of the Capitol, they are definitely under the incitement portion of this. And they are definitely under the assist portion of this. Um, even though they didn't engage in the actual storming of the capital, they incited it. Um, I hope the DOJ, I hope law enforcement in general has the courage to kind of pursue these charges the way they need to. I know there have already been in a couple of district, uh, attorneys in Kentucky, particularly who've said, they're going to look at charges against anyone from their district who traveled to Washington DC with the intent purpose of engaging in this seditious activity. Um, you love to hear that from Kentucky. I, well, this is the thing I think hopefully I think Trump and his followers overestimated who would support their, their treason, you know, and it seems to be true. I mean, so many people defected yesterday. I mean, you saw it melts away. I mean, at one part, Laura Ingram on Fox news is saying, this has to stop
Speaker 1 00:52:50 Well, but then Tucker Carlson runs his stupid mouth and says, no, no,
Speaker 0 00:52:54 He's going to go work for Donald Trump on his do media network. Um,
Speaker 1 00:53:00 So here's something that I've been kind of floating a little bit in my own head and I'll float it by you.
Speaker 0 00:53:09 This
Speaker 1 00:53:10 Situation to me was almost a necessary evil because we, as historians have been banging the drum of there's a problem in America, there's a problem with race. There's a problem with policing. There's a problem with white supremacy organizations. There's a problem with domestic terrorism. There's the problem. There's a problem. There's a problem. And we, I mean, I've said that since I started teaching, well, I think this is so fully on display that it cannot be denied is so fully on display.
Speaker 0 00:53:47 Well, here's the thing is I think Timothy McVeigh, Ruby Ridge, all of that, I don't think we ever resolved that
Speaker 1 00:53:55 Those are peanuts compared to what happened yesterday,
Speaker 0 00:53:58 But I think, but I think we never resolved what had allowed that those groups to grow and what they were morphing into. I don't think we ever resolved them. And in 2016, a president was elected who actually fostered that type of approach.
Speaker 1 00:54:15 Cause this is open here. That's so important to point out. This has always been here. There's always been an undertone of it. But then to have this, these thoughts and these, this ideology, this radicalism represented by the person who holds the highest office in the United States, it just laid it all out, bare for us to see, and it's horrifying, but it's been around. And now Dow that we have their faces. Now that we know who's specifically doing this, it's time to root it out once. And for all
Speaker 0 00:54:48 Right. Well, I mean, this is the thing, uh, proud boys. Oathkeepers any white nationalist group, all of these groups. Um, the good thing is, is they've outdid themselves as members of this now, and we know who they are,
Speaker 1 00:55:04 They're being fired from their jobs I've seen here.
Speaker 0 00:55:09 Right. Well, and there's already talk about how hard is it. Uh, you know, our kind of people who had previously have supported somebody like Holly from Minnesota, from Missouri, um, is it going to be harder for them to gather financial support for future campaigns? And I think it will be as long as we keep this in people's minds. And this is the thing, I think anybody who aided or abetted this insurrection and yesterday, if, and when they run for office again, I think immediately people need to remind the public of the pictures from yesterday is dystopian and what their vision of America looks like. Their vision of America is jackbooted. Thugs are pure and simple.
Speaker 1 00:56:01 I I'm still reeling. Like I think the trauma of all of this has not even begun to set in. And I, and as van Jones said, like, is it the starters at the end? I am so afraid that it's not, we've not seen the last of this.
Speaker 0 00:56:15 I don't think we've seen the last of them, but what I've I think we have seen is I think they push in a way that has made many Americans who maybe didn't, who viewed, you know, kind of the proud boys and people who protest for black lives matter as very similar in their tactics. I think those people are now are like, yeah, no, that's not actually true. I was wrong. Um, you know, this isn't even addressing kind of broader issues, but, um, I was very hard and last night I felt I actually teared up last night a little bit as I watched the joint session finish, certify or finish, uh, County, the electoral though,
Speaker 1 00:57:04 I was very proud of them for doing that. I was, I thought it was important. And I think they're hand you, you know, they're all crying. Oh, we had to go hide under our desks because there were guns. Oh, I'm sorry. If you never been in a public school in the United States, right. You have to do that all the time. I grew up doing that. I grew up hiding from a potential shooter and I'm sorry, I'm not, I'm not trying to downplay it, but it's like now, you know what? It's like to live in the United States and arm, all of these idiots and allow them to just March around wherever they feel like it it's scary. Yeah. But that being said, I was very proud of them for pulling it back together, coming, you know, getting the business of this country done it. It was a very proud moment when I woke up and saw the notification on my phone that it was done. I did feel very proud of them going back and doing that even though they had been terrorized previously in the day. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:58:05 I mean, it's just that, that's the thing is they ultimately these insurrectionists, these traitorous mobs, they failed in their job. They've they failed in their task to, to undermine, to subvert the will of the people and undermine the democratic process. They failed
Speaker 1 00:58:25 Because they're losers. They have their losers
Speaker 0 00:58:30 Is that, you know, if you want to cloak yourself in the Confederate battle flag, it's the banner of losers. It's the banner of immoral, not amoral, but immoral, um, intellectually deficient losers. And, and, you know, again, I, when we started this podcast, we weren't, we said we weren't gonna get very political, but it's, you know, Hillary Clinton was so demonized in 2016 when she called the people who supported Trump, a basket of deplorables. What I saw yesterday, uh, gathered around the Capitol where a basket of deplorables.
Speaker 1 00:59:16 Yeah. I mean, I think that that's putting it very nicely.
Speaker 0 00:59:19 I think it is too, but I mean, these are not who are feeling pain and we need to figure out why they're feeling this pain. These are people who violently want to impose their view of what the United States should be on everyone else,
Speaker 1 00:59:41 Um, support and speechless and processing it. But yeah, I mean, I also think back to Mitt Romney in 2012, I saw, I said this last time, but like, Russia's the greatest geopolitical threat. All of this is rooted in, in a Russian plot to undermine our elections, to get into our civil discourse, to divide people in this country, to inject conspiracy into the minds of the most feeble-minded Americans and to subvert our democracy and their winning good job.
Speaker 0 01:00:22 Right. I think you're right on some level, but at this, I want to be cautious about saying that because I don't want that to be an excuse and say, well, these poor people were just kind of duped.
Speaker 1 01:00:32 No, they are morons. And they were due to be said,
Speaker 0 01:00:38 Right. But at the same time, they are no different than any other group that supported a fascist takeover. And this is the thing too, is I think that fascism should be a dirty word. And if somebody's antifascist, that should not be something they're ashamed to say they are.
Speaker 1 01:01:00 I don't even think they know what that means when they say Antifa, like I hear boomers just like flowing that word out of their mouth and they didn't even know what it means. Cause I'm like you think being anti-fascist says bad will show me
Speaker 0 01:01:16 Their fathers fought against fascist. It blows my mind.
Speaker 1 01:01:23 Anyway.
Speaker 0 01:01:25 Um, I mean, it's, this is kind of been rambling today. I know we just wanted to get something out because I, I think, you know, we're all kind of still processing this. Um, and I definitely agree. We're going to do another episode on conspiracy theories here in the near future. Um, but I think we need to have a follow-up to this. And I, I would really like us to compare groups like the oath keepers and proud boys to previous kind of seditious militia movements. Okay.
Speaker 1 01:01:55 I think when we have a little more time to, to really dive you're right, it was important to speak on this and to help us process it. And hopefully by listening to this, it helps some of you process it. This is still a very active, evolving, and unfolding situation. I think we are going to see a lot in the coming weeks of trying to get to the bottom of what happened. Um, but then also I'm really hoping to see some ousting of, you know, people from Congress over this because it's not unprecedented. So again, it's unfolding. I hope that this helped you process what's happening. Yep. All right. Well, thanks for joining us. I'm Jeff and I'm Hillary have a good one.
Speaker 2 01:02:41 <inaudible>.
